"If you do not pray for God's power, you do not understand even the most fundamental aspects of the Christian life. You think that you need to live for Christ by your own strength, in a self-dependent way. Since, for example, Bro. Brandenburg does not pray for power, he must be totally ignorant of how the Christian life. He certainly is someone who is bad and who needs to be avoided, and we should tell other people this and warn about him, warn about Bethel Baptist Church, and warn about their proud rejection of Biblical Christianity in their refusal to pray for power."
If you believe that the paragraph above is true, you should be prepared to answer the following questions:
1.) Does anyone pray for "power" in the New Testament? Does Christ teach His people to pray for power in the model prayer? In the inspired prayerbook of Israel, the Psalter, does anyone pray for power? If the answer to the questions above is "no," is Scripture sufficient for teaching us how to pray?
2.) Can someone recognize, rejoice in, and have absolute confidence in the reality that without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5) by trusting in the power of Christ, just like he can trust in the strength of the indwelling Spirit, without specifically praying for power? Do we need to pray for indwelling in order to trust in the strength of the indwelling Spirit?
3.) Do we know what we are asking for when we pray for "power"? Do we mean that we
expect God to do what happened with Elijah and suspend the climate over
Israel for three years and then make literal fire come down literally
from heaven (1 Kings 18)? Do we mean a sign miracle, in the sense of the Greek word
semeion? Alternatively, do we mean what Jack Hyles meant when he prayed to his dead mother, the ability to get more people to repeat the "sinner's prayer" than would have done it without praying for power? Do we mean what Scripture
means by dunamis, exousia, etc.? If we have never studied out what the Greek and Hebrew words the Holy Spirit dictated for power mean or if we don't care what God means by the words translated power enough to see what He has revealed on the subject, do we even
know what we are asking for when we pray for power? (Note the study here on the differences between the words for "miracle," some of which are also rendered "power," which is very important if we are going to say we need to pray for power.)
4.) Can someone who prays for what Christ specifically said to pray for in the model prayer, who has carefully studied every single prayer in the New
Testament, preached expositionally through the entire Psalter, and prays
for what the Apostles prayed for, for what Christ told His people to
pray for, but does not specifically pray for "power" because there is
not even one example of that in the NT, be missing "one of the most
basic facts of the Christian life"? Is Scripture sufficient for instruction on how to live the Christian life?
5.) Let us say a Christian notices that practically every NT
epistle begins with asking God for "grace," sees that there are actual
commands that relate to this, e. g., "let us have grace, whereby we may
serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Heb 12:28), and so
is utterly dependent upon God for grace, prays for grace, and glories in
God's grace. However, he does not pray for "power"
because there is not a single example of prayer for it but Scripture
actually says that God's mighty power is working in all who believe (Eph
1:19) and what we need to pray for us to have our eyes enlightened to
this fact (Eph 1:18). Is it OK to pray for grace and depend upon God's grace instead of praying for power? (Note that by praying for "grace" we can study Scripture to see exactly what this means in relation to prayer--something we cannot do when praying for "power.")
6.) When you say we need to pray for "power" are you actually thinking of what the Bible models when it teaches over and over again invoking God for His grace? If so, is it OK to pray for grace instead of praying for "power"?
7.) If you mean something other than what Scripture means when it models praying for "grace" when you say we need to pray for "power," how do you know what you mean by this? Would you know how to pray without uninspired books and the teachings of fallible men?
8.) If you pray for "power" but have never thought about the questions above--and, even worse, if you don't care what the Biblical answers are--is the God who inspired the Bible answering your prayer?
8.) If you pray for "power" but have never thought about the questions above--and, even worse, if you don't care what the Biblical answers are--is the God who inspired the Bible answering your prayer?
If you don't pray for grace, don't pray the types of things in the model prayer, don't pray for what we see modeled in the New Testament, are self-dependent, and learn nothing from the prayers in the Psalter, you are indeed missing crucial aspects of the Christian life, and you need to get with the program right away. Don't be foolish and use the misinterpretation of Scripture by other people as an excuse to be spiritually weak yourself. Learn what the Bible teaches about prayer and pray that way. Start as soon as you confess your wicked prayerlessness.
If you are depending on the strength of Christ, are praying in faith for things mentioned in the model prayer, in the prayers of the New Testament, in the Psalter, and other parts of the Bible, and are trusting in and calling upon God for His grace, you are going to be OK, even if sinful and fallible men condemn you for not using the word "power" in your prayers, because the Lord Jesus said "the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).
-TDR
The Bible doesn’t limit our prayers to only prayers in the Bible when it says “whatsoever ye shall ask....”
ReplyDeleteIf Grace = Power in a round about way then why can’t you say you pray for power?
Dear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks for asking. If a person means something like what Scripture models when invoking God for grace when he uses the word "power," then it is fine. Something like "Lord, please graciously empower me to resist temptation" or "please empower me to preach boldly," etc. is fine. However, some have the idea that if you do not use the word "power" you are missing out on fundamental aspects of the Christian life, and that simply is not a defensible position.
Furthermore, if we are going to express Biblical ideas in non-Biblical terminology we need to be very careful that the content of the non-Biblical terminology fits with the teaching of Scripture. A church that is full of people who are praying for "power" but rarely or never pray for "grace" may have God, in His great goodness, answer the prayer for "power" when what is really meant is "grace," but the prayers will be less pleasing to God and less likely to be answered when the person praying either does not understand what he is asking God for or when, because of non-Biblical terminology, he is asking for something that he has no promise from God to give him.
Please note the second half of the verse for which you quoted the first half, which mentions that prayer is in Christ's "name." A believer cannot ask in Christ's name to do (for example) what Elijah did in having fire come down from heaven after making rain cease for 3.5 years because God has revealed in 1 Cor 13, Eph 2, and other passages that sign gifts have ceased and the Deuteronomic covenant on which basis Elijah prayed is for a different dispensation.
Of course, it is true that one can pray other things than the exact words of NT prayers. If that is what you are saying, then I am not sure who would deny that fact.
Thanks again.
"Whatsoever you ask" doesn't mean to ask for whatever you want. It's clear in scripture someone is wrong to ask for just anything. It must be a prayer in God's will that you believe that you will receive. It must be in Jesus' name, so consistent with the character of Jesus. It cannot be to consume upon your own lust. The Lord taught the model prayer as a model, not as something to ignore and do what you want instead.
ReplyDeleteTo Thomas,
ReplyDeleteWhat is the reason you suppose that the basis on which Elijah prayed is different than Matthew 21:21-22?
A.T.
Dear A. T.,
ReplyDelete1Kings 18:36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
Elijah caused the rain to stop for 3.5 years because:
1.) He was God's prophet who had special revelation for it; and:
2.) He was fulfilling the Deuteronomic covenant and the promises of 1 Kings 8 revealed under Solomon:
Deut. 11:17 And then the LORD’S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.
1Kings 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:
2Chr. 6:26 When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;
Elijah was not claiming Matthew 21:21-22 because Christ taught Matthew 21:21-22 hundreds of years after Elijah went to heaven in a chariot. Elijah was using his authority as God's prophet (and there are no prophets today, as they were part of the now completed foundation of the church, Eph 2:20) and was also referring to what God had told Israel in Deuteronomy and 1 Kings.
Thanks.
Hi Thomas,
ReplyDeleteI understand all of that. I'm not disagreeing. Let me state my question this way: What is the reason you suppose that the basis of Matthew 21:21-22 is different than that of the Old Testament. Take for example 1 Kings 8:38-40.
I know you said something about being a different dispensation. Even if we agree on everything you just said, that this was a specific and exact instance of answered prayer, though, were these really two different bases? That is to say, can we use this to establish or prove that the specific things mentioned in the Old Testament which you mentioned have nothing to do with what we are told in Matthew 21:21-22 because "it was a different dispensation"?
Regardless, if we are believing, we should only ask those things which are his will be done; and not in the way as it mentions in James 4:3. This is absolutely consistent throughout both Testaments.
A.T.
I'm sorry, A. T., but I may not really get your question. God had told Israel specifically that He would withhold rain if they sinned and would give it again if they repented. In this dispensation Christ said God showers the rain on the just and the unjust, at least as the pattern. Elijah also was a prophet who could do signs and wonders. The original audience of 1 Kings could not possibly have thought Elijah was claiming Matthew 21.
ReplyDeleteI apologize if I am not getting what you are driving at. I hope you read the links in the text of the post. Thanks.
Did you read 1 Kings 8:38-40? If you don't get the question I would suggest checking there. It is anachronistic to suppose that if Matthew 21:21-22 contained a completely new idea, that Elijah had been referencing it. I'm not sure why you think that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that was already the truth long before that. I'm not sure why you seem to be having a hard time with getting that? I've mentioned 1 Kings 8:38-40 once already.
ReplyDeleteNow the reason for this is because I don't know where you're getting the idea of dispensations, from any of the scripture references you quoted. I agree with you other points; but it's unsettling, in a much broader sense, that you think that dispensations are causing differences here. I'd like to know specifically where that idea came from, where you got that "dispensation" idea from, in light of the things that have already been brought up. God giving rain to the just and the unjust is not a new concept either, see Ecclesiastes and Job.
This is in no way withstanding the fact that the prophecy of the drought was specifically fulfilled with the man whom God chose to accomplish it at that time and place.
I'm sorry if this extra bit of information makes my reply any more complicated as you already said you aren't getting my question. I don't know how else but to answer each of the things you raised in turn while trying repeatedly to reiterate my question until you get it. It is at least possible to salvage this in the fact that other readers grasp what I'm asking. I'm not a "continuationist" nor anything like that. I'd simply like to know, from any of those Biblical passages, where you got the idea of the different dispensations.
And thanks for the article,
A.T.
Dear AT,
ReplyDelete1 Kings 8:35-40 references Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomic Covenant. That covenant was in force for Israel as God's institution in the OT but is different in this dispensation. It isn't a matter of the word "dispensation." I hope that answers your question.
Whether or not Matthew 21's teaching on prayer is also taught in the OT is not something the post addresses one way or the other. I don't believe it has been proved (or disproved, I suppose) in the comments either. If the OT also teaches what Christ said in Matthew 21, if we assume that for the sake of argument, the OT does not give any examples of people praying for a mountain to literally move from one place to a different one, just like the Apostles did not pray that, so it may not give us that much mileage for asking for things not modeled in Scripture, but may emphasize God's great power to answer the types of prayers that are in His will.
Thank you.
Hi Thomas,
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about my earlier comment and I believe I was a little too harsh, so I apologize for that. My reason was, to try and make sure I was understood, without sounding like I was intentionally going back and forth, or being confusing for you on purpose. That was honestly not what my post was trying to do.
Anyways I'm not too surprised that we agree on all of this. Like you said James 4:3 is something to have in mind when referencing the quotation "whatsoever ye shall ask", as also even Jesus himself once said, "not what I will, but what thou will."
I think the passage in 1 Kings 8 is in line with that because it says that they are praying "know[ing] every man the plague in his own heart". And that I still think is part of the basis on which a legitimate prayer by a sinful person has always been, regardless of whether it was a specific fulfillment of a prophecy or no. I don't think a prayer would be answered without that, or without believing. That basis seems to me as being a fixed one. Stay well.
Dear A. T.,
ReplyDeleteNo problem, thanks.
TDR,
ReplyDeleteYour first paragraph is in quotation marks. Typically that means one is quoting someone. For yours and your readers’ sake, would you please clarify if this is an actual quote or an Adam Schiff-style ;) quote?
God's power is definitely one of many fundamental aspects of the Christian life. I'm sure you'd agree.
I personally don’t see anything anti-Biblical with Elijah or Paul or anyone in this dispensation praying for the manifestation of God’s power in people’s lives. That display of power causes the lost to see that there is something worthwhile in following Christ. I’m not referring to charismatic quackery, but genuine, God-honoring works of the Spirit. Sometimes things happen that are clearly miraculous supernatural acts of God. Sometimes people are lead in prayer to pray certain abnormal things, and God clearly answers them. These aren't loony people, but people who are walking with God. Maybe you think Darrell Champlain was lying or mistaken when he took his shoes of and jumped right into the fire without being burned. Or perhaps Pastor Charlie Kittrell was evangelistically speaking when he prayed for the rain to stop and it did. These guys are dead, but they being dead still speak through the lives they impacted.
I opened up my daughter’s Bible today and it just so happened to open directly to 1 Kings 18. I decided to read it to the family. After reading the story of the fire consuming the sacrifice, It was obvious to the kids that Elijah wanted God’s power to be displayed. I’m afraid you can’t use dispensations as a good argument in this passage. We aren’t talking about the rain. We’re talking about the fire consuming the sacrifice. The rain topic was earlier and later, but the power of God wasn’t only seen in the rain. There are plenty of real-life examples of God’s power being experienced by people, pastors, evangelists, missionaries, etc who aren’t afraid to pray for them.
Let’s not encourage people in praying against God’s power, when we are clearly warned not to deny the δύναμις of true godliness in 2 Timothy 3:5. I believe that applies here especially since it was written post-1 Corinthians 13.
I haven’t yet seen anywhere that God warns us in any remote way against praying for his power. In fact, I see the opposite.
I find the argument from silence a very weak one in this case, when the Scripture isn't silent, and especially when it can be easily deduced from many passages that praying for God’s power isn’t wrong. It's what Elijah did and it's what Paul did. I would challenge you to go back to some of these passages where δύναμις is mentioned and see if perhaps there is a slight possibility that you could be wrong, and the many God and local church-ordained, Spirit-empowered , and learned men that you have worked with are right. It doesn't require a thorough word-study of every δύναμις to understand that we need God's power. We could start with 2 Th. 1:11 or 2 Co 12:9. The last one is especially interesting in this case. It’s clearly not guaranteed that the δύναμις of Christ will rest upon us. Also we see that χάρις and δύναμις are parallel terms. One could also examine Col. 1:11 where Paul clearly prayed for δύναμις for the Colossian believers. In 1 Th 1:5, Paul talked about his gospel coming in δύναμις. I’d think it would be helpful to deduce that perhaps we don’t have enough δύναμις if we aren’t seeing souls come to Christ like Paul, Peter, and the early Christians. "Wilt not Thou revive us again that Thy people may rejoice in Thee?" Ps 85:6. And as the good song says, "Lord, send the old time power, the Pentecostal power, that sinners be converted, and Thy name glorified."
Yes, we have the Spirit, but we could use a double-portion of His power as seen in Peter, Paul, and the early Christians in these dark days.
Evan
Dear Evan,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. I appreciate that you attempted to give a Scriptural basis for your argument after citing the uninspired examples first.
If you answer the questions in the post, it would help us to discuss the matter more intelligently. Could you do that? Thanks.
Also, Evan, do you think in Proverbs 6:28:
ReplyDelete“Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?”
that the answer God means the reader to give is "yes!" in context, or "no"? What if Satan gets ahead more by people listening to uninspired examples of what supposedly happened somewhere and coming out denying what Scripture teaches? Are we really supposed to take up witchdoctors if they challenge us to walk on hot coals to prove the Bible? Should we derive even 1% of our doctrine of prayer from what someone told us happened somewhere, or is Scripture alone sufficient for us to know how to pray?
Finally, Evan, I believe if you read What is Truth? with some regularity you will find that the people who write the posts seek to be very careful with accurate quotations. If I intend for someone to have an actual quote of some specific person, I will cite that person. I believe that the questions at the top of this post represent the type of thought that numbers of people think who probably have never considered the questions in the content of the post. So someone should not read into what it does not say and conclude that I am citing a specific person but for some reason am unwilling to give my source, nor should someone conclude that I am deliberately distorting and twisting things like Adam Schiff. I actually don't think that someone who comes with a 1 Cor 13 attitude of love hoping and believing all things would come to either of the two options you listed. Thanks again.
ReplyDeleteTDR,
ReplyDeleteThe last Anonymous comment was mine. The order of my arguments had nothing to do with their importance.
Not sure why I have to answer all your questions. I very clearly answered question number 1. That invalidates my need to answer the rest of the questions. Yes, people did pray for power—at least Paul did. I very clearly proved that even using the Greek words that Paul used.
Also, miracles go against the established “laws” of nature—that’s why they are miracles. I could give you plenty of examples of modern miracles. Proverbs 8:26 would not apply to a miracle. You’re ignoring all the verses I gave, and then incorrectly using Proverbs 8:26 to incorrectly attack an illustration.
I don’t need to go back to all your other articles and read them. I’m addressing this one.
I’d appreciate if you’d actually address what I have to say instead of trying to attack my supposedly weak illustration.
Evan
If I may give a quick response to Evan. If you read 1 Kings 17, you would have also seen that Elijah indeed made the prophecy of the drought. And if you read the end of 1 Kings 18 you would have also seen that he ended the same prophecy there. And so it does make sense then to suggest that, what was being discussed in the article at least, was specifically that which is related to the aforementioned prophecy of Deuteronomy.
ReplyDelete"I haven’t yet seen anywhere that God warns us in any remote way against praying for his power."
St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians chapter number 1 that, "the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."
And also: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
So when I see you talking about "real-life examples of God's power" in reference to latter-day signs, I have to wonder if you think the word of God (the preaching of the cross) is not a "real-life" true example of God's power, as Paul clearly expressed it is in 1 Corinthians. Is this idea not seeking after a sign while denying the power of godliness as such? By not calling real godliness a "real-life example" do you relegate these things to a lesser status and thereby deny their power? I think there are people that do this, but I don't want to think you meant to say it.
Lastly with regard to the signs that followed the apostles we find them in the word of God for us today, they are there for us. And the Lord said "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
A.T.
Dear Evan,
ReplyDeleteLet me give you three reasons why you should answer the questions asked in the post.
1.) You are arguing against what the post is about.
2.) If you clearly answered question #3, it would help sort out a lot of confusion in what you are arguing. Part of what you are saying clearly refers to the Greek word semeion, a miracle as a sign, not dunamis. Unfortunately, since it seems you did not read the single article I referenced in question #3 but instead said "I don't need to go back to all your other articles and read them," you do not seem to be aware of the difference.
3.) In another example of where answering question #3 comes into question, one of your texts proving Paul prayed for power, Colossians 1, Paul actually was praying that they would be "filled with the knowledge of [God's] will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding," "walk worthy of the Lord," etc., and God would answer this prayer by graciously enabling the Colossians to be holy people. Yet your conclusion was not that God empowers people to be holy, but that God and Satan can equally effectively (note in the illustration you supplied God did not do anything better than Satan; "I will be like the most high," Isaiah 14) help people to walk on hot coals (at least apparently exactly the opposite of Proverbs 6:28, "Yea, hath God said?") when witch doctors who are not willing to listen to the Word of God (Romans 10:17) challenge Christians to power encounters. There is the grossest confusion here of what the word "power" means.
I would suggest, therefore, that you kindly answer the questions in the post if you wish to intelligently discuss the content of the post in the comment section to the post. That would be more effective than comparisons to liars like Adam Schiff or assertions that people should not "pray against God's power," with 2 Timothy 3:5 cited (who do you think is doing that?).
Thanks.
Reply to Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that we need to be praying for sign miracles or any such thing in order to validate the gospel. I do believe that there may be occasions when God does an amazing work and that causes people to be saved.
I do believe every word of God to be inspired, I do believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. There is no other way to be saved. The gospel alone given without the Spirit's filling is not going to be as influential. It is the Spirit who convicts the heart of men. Grieve not the Spirit.
We don't need to seek for a sign, but my point is that if people are lost, they need to know we have a living God. Also, not every miraculous occurrence is a "sign."
Regarding 1 Kings 18, my point is that not everything in that passage has to do with rain. To argue against praying for God's power because of the promises to Israel regarding rain doesn't work since Elijah wasn't only praying about rain. Also, God is still the one controlling the rain. He is still the same God, and can still control the rain through the prayers of His saints if he so desires.
TDR,
ReplyDeleteI think you missed my point. Answering number three is not necessary if you would understand what I'm trying to say.
I'm saying that there is a Biblical reason to pray for God's power (and not just in the narrow confines of what you believe to be people's apparent misunderstanding of the Greek words for power). I gave references that clearly show that. I believe I have intelligently answered.
I don't believe I have the grossest confusion on what the word "power" means. Paul's prayer was not just generally about enabling them to be holy people. It was also about enabling them to be "fruitful in every good work." It is also clearly related to power over darkness. Please examine verse 13a: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness." To consider my analysis to have "grossest confusion," I believe is incorrect.
It's interesting that not just one Greek word that can be translated "power" is used in Col. 1:11, (and three times words that can be translated power are used in the same verse in the context of a PRAYER!). The power of God is not narrowly limited to His grace, but also applies to His authority in this world and that means it is very wide-ranging.
Don't assume that because you believe that you have studied the Bible thoroughly, that other people haven't or have an inferior understanding.
May God bless us all with many more souls to enter His Kingdom.
Evan
P.S. My remark about praying "against God's power" could have been worded "Let’s not encourage people against praying for God's power."
Dear Anonymous replying to Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt is confusing with all the anonymity. I'll just let your comment stand.
Dear Evan,
Col. 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col. 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col. 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col. 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light ...
What Paul is actually praying for is that the Colossians be filled with the knowledge of God's will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, that they would walk worthy, increase in the knowledge of God, etc. Paul praying those things RESULTED in them being strengthened with all might according to God's glorious power. Furthermore, "hath delivered" in v. 13 indicates an event in the past--the new birth. It has nothing to do with praying against Satan. That is not to say other parts of Scripture do not give precious instruction on what the believer is to do at present to stand against Satan, but Col 1:13 is not about the believer's present actions but his past deliverance. We are not more effective dealing with Satan if we are not careful with God's Word.
Here again is a situation where if you would answer question #2 it would be helpful. Is it OK to pray for saints to walk worthy and believe God will answer that prayer through His great power, or do we need to pray for "power" specifically--which is not what Paul prayed in Colossians 1?
If you can make Colossians 1:9ff. into a justification for fighting witchdoctors to a draw (unlike real Biblical miracles, where God's power is always greater) then I am afraid that you could make Scripture mean anything.
I am sorry that you are not willing, it appears, to answer the questions in the post. It would not be that hard to do and would make an intelligent discussion of this matter much more likely.
I am not planning to respond more unless you answer the post's questions.
Yes, may God glorify His own name with souls added to His kingdom--which will happen in a greater way the more Biblically we pray.
Thanks.