Satan is real. What about COVID-19? We have seen lockdowns. We have seen trillions in new debt. We have seen new drugs created by Big Pharma. Videos saying it is a "Plandemic," something taught by the great scientist Judy Mikovitsc until she was shut down by the communists who control the government, have gone viral.
Millions of people think masks do not work and can cause CO2 poisoning. Maybe COVID is something our government is spreading in conjunction with communist China in order to trick people into getting vaccinated--after all, think about the millions of lives impacted by vaccines. YouTube videos are everywhere. (Check this two minute one out on how cures for cancer are being suppressed--note that I do not endorse the music):
At work a few months ago I had to do a report because someone identifying himself as "Freekshow" had put graffiti up stating "There is no coronavirus. The government lies to us every day."
Maybe that is the truth, no? Is Freekshow right and the CDC wrong?
Churches need to take a stand! They need to not wear masks! They need to stop social distancing! Hand sanitizer and gloves are actually bad for you! They need to resist the Red Chinese who are taking over our country using COVID! Forget PubMed--they need to get everyone to watch Plandemic and get medical information from other reliable sources, like videos random people put on the Internet! It is only the Demoncrats, like Senate leader Mitch McConnell and Vice President Mike Pence, who believe in any of this mask wearing stuff! Baptists, fundamentalists, and evangelicals need to show that they are not gullible enough to believe the CDC and Dr. Fauci when there are videos on YouTube and graffiti artists who show that they are wrong. RESIST!
Satan is real--he has a purpose here to hurt the church of God and take away our liberties and constitutional rights!
The REAL COVID-19 Conspiracy and Satan
So let's say your church goes this route. They stop preaching and applying the Bible alone and start preaching on conspiracy theories, giving them the imprimatur of "thus saith the LORD" from the pulpit of the Lord's church. Maybe you are a church member who is pushing for this to happen and are promoting these theories to others in the congregation. Maybe you are a church leader who wants to do this. Here are some things you should consider.
What if the conspiracy theories you are having Christ's church promote violate basic laws of science--for example, what if carbon dioxide molecules are simply far too small to not pass through masks, while viruses and water droplets composed of thousands of H20 molecules together are much larger?
What if the people who you are calling out as communist agents, or as who knows what else, are not actually agents of communism, even if you disagree with their political perspective? Isn't slander still a sin, even if you are slandering someone who takes a different political position? Should the pulpit be a place for people to hear the Triune Jehovah's truth, or slander?
What if we are commanded to be “afraid to speak evil of dignities” and not to “despise government” (2 Peter; Jude), so we don't actually get to rail against governmental officials, since Michael the Archangel did not even revile Satan? What if Romans 13 actually means what it says and those magistrates have authority from God, as even the wicked ruler Nero did? What if you are guilty of the sin of evil-speaking? What if when Christ exposed the Pharisees in Matthew 23, every single thing He said was 100% accurate, but your accusations are not? What if, unintentionally perhaps, you are spreading lies? Do you remember who the father of lies is (John 8:44)?
What if you destroy Christian liberty by binding the consciences of the saints to conspiratorial beliefs and practices for which you have no authority from the great Head of the Church? What if He whose eyes are like a flame of fire, whose feet are like burning brass, who took a whip and drove out people from His Father's House who were perverting His truth, and who killed people in Corinth for unworthy practices (1 Corinthians 11) does not like it when you tell His espoused bride (Ephesians 5) something other than what He, her great Husband, commands?
What if you are now feeding God's sheep junk food instead of giving the hungry children of God the milk and meat of the Word? What did Jehovah do to the shepherds who would not "feed the flock" (Ezekiel 34:3; 1 Peter 5)?
What if, after you stand against masks and against social distancing, COVID spreads through your church like wildfire? What if some of God's saints die because you failed to practice sound reasoning--which is commanded in Scripture (Isaiah 1:18) and is part of the greatest commandment, to love God with all your mind as well as your affections (Mark 12:30)? What if you are an awful testimony to your community as your church becomes known as the place, not where God's truth is spread, but where disease is spread? What if your church spreads COVID to people in the community who then die and go to hell?
What if your church leads to many church members losing thousands of dollars since they can't go to work because you exposed them to COVID? What if your church temporarily shuts down community businesses by infecting them with COVID? Do you think those people will listen to your church when it proclaims the gospel?
What if people leave a strong independent Baptist church for a weak or false "church" because the strong church is such a rotten testimony through getting side-tracked with conspiracy theories? What if you are no longer able to effectively fulfill the Great Commission because people who are not conspiracy theory addicts think your church is full of disease-spreading nut cases? You bear no sin if people are turned off because of Biblical truth, but what if you do bear sin if they are turned off because you are promoting conspiracy theories?
What if people follow your COVID conspiracy theories and get into other conspiracies, with the result that they die of forms of cancer that are actually easily treatable because they opt for New Age or other unconventional "medicine" instead of treatments that actually work?
What if people are not willing to believe actual Biblical truth you preach to them because of the conspiratorial lies you were mixing in with God's truth?
What if preaching conspiracy theories actually helps destroy religious liberty and weaken constitutional freedoms? What if by going nuts you provide a great argument for secular rulers keeping churches closed? What if by rejecting masks or other CDC guidelines you distract from real and wicked violations of religious liberty, such as Nevada guidelines that favor casinos and discriminate against churches or the unrighteous restrictions on churches in California? What if by making conspiratorial nonsense a hill to die on, you strengthen the hand of Satan and those in government who actually do despise Christ, His churches, and His people, and make it harder for Christians to really take a stand over what actually does matter?
What if the real conspiracy of Satan is not found in the misinformation in Plandemic and other online videos, but Satan's real goal is to get you to believe unscientific lies online, stop preaching the Bible, commit the sins of slander and evil-speaking, contribute to the death or sickness of some of the saints and some in the world, destroy your testimony, hinder the Great Commission, and contribute to the destruction of religious liberty by being a nut-case?
What if you may have good intentions, but there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is still spiritual death and destruction (Proverbs 14:12)?
Please carefully apply Biblical principles, employ logic--the way God thinks--use reason--as He commands His people to do--cry mightily to God for understanding, and put feet to those prayers by doing careful research, before you promote conspiracy theories to fellow saints in the Lord's church, and especially consider the above, if you are a church leader, before you bring any conspiracy theories into the sacred pulpit of the Lord's NT temple. Maybe you should even evaluate whether the time you spend watching YouTube videos on this stuff would be better employed studying Scripture or even reading a textbook on biology to make sure you understand basic scientific facts.
Be careful you are not advancing Satan's cause when you think you are opposing it by proclaiming conspiracy theories.
By the way, if you think I must have been paid off by Big Pharma to write this, please make sure that they have my correct address--the checks haven't been coming, and I have been waiting and waiting and waiting.
If you feel personally offended by this post, or if you think that the proper response to it is to ignore its arguments and attack is author, I would suggest that you meditate upon Isaiah 1:18 and, instead of judging based on feelings, think dispassionately about whether your response is logical or rational.
-TDR
Thomas,
ReplyDeleteSomebody commented, you saw I know, who was ranting against your comment, insulting you for it, which is an illustration this is out there, but we have had a policy not to publish his comments, and he will have the opportunity when your post comes out later in August. His comment though is a good example of what you are saying here.
I was going to write a follow up post to mine about Romans 13/1 Peter 2 and then the first amendment, that I wrote a few weeks ago (August 3): https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2020/08/covid-19-and-churches-subject-to-higher.html
That post would have been about taking precautions being scriptural and commendable, hand-in-hand with meeting. Meeting up here in Oregon, we are still taking precautions, even when this is a very libertarian type environment up here, as seen in lots of missing masks, when I look around. Another state where I was earlier this week, no one wore them. I got into a taxi with two different taxi drivers, no mask.
Our county was doing very well, but then this week, we were put on a watch list in the state, because of rising cases, likely because of a lack of precaution. I take precautions, washing my hands more, wiping things down more, not touching my eyes when I know that I didn't just wash my hands or hand sanitize them, wearing the mask. We try to social distance too. I go out door to door almost every day and I wear a mask at every door and step back from the door several feet when I talk. No one has expressed a problem with me at hundreds of doors.
Thanks for the comment.
ReplyDeleteOut here when we have passed out tracts at the public transit stations we wear an N95 (they are on sale at Office Max out here, so they are not restricting them to health care workers), eye protection (big sunglasses), and wear gloves. I then try to change out of those clothes right away and wear other clothes that have not been worn while being exposed to a very large number of people, and keep the glasses, N95, etc. separate for a week before wearing/touching them (the virus is not supposed to be able to make it on a surface beyond a few days). I think it is both wise and also prevents me from being a stumbling block to others. If they don't want the gospel because they love their sin, their blood is not on my hands, while if they reject the gospel because I am not taking precautions and they can say I am spreading disease, that is not justifiable.
Brother Ross, this was a very, very good post.
ReplyDeleteYour article is based on sound Biblical principles. I wrote an article a couple weeks ago based on similar principles (https://mindrenewers.com/2020/08/08/why-im-wearing-a-mask-tomorrow/). Some of the response was very disappointing, but most Christians will recognise the force of the Scriptural principles even if they don't like where it takes them.
It is interesting that so many people who are exhorting other Christians not to be afraid of the virus are also exhorting them to be afraid of a government conspiracy, or afraid of masks, etc. But God hath not given us a spirit of fear of those things, either.
Brother Ross,
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting to see so many different responses to the government mandates that have been given on account of this mysterious Chinese virus.
I don't think that I have believed or propagated any conspiracy theories, yet I also wear a mask as LITTLE as possible...even though our governor has "mandated" it.
To me, along with what you have said here, Christians should use discernment. The Bereans were praised because they searched the scriptures and "tested" what Paul spoke. We are also commanded to "try the spirits." As a preacher of God's word, I expect all who listen to me to test what I say and exhort them to do against the authority I have to give that exhortation.
I believe that citizens should also test what their civil leaders exhort them to do against the authority that they have to do it. When there is an emergency, we listen to our civil leaders. For example, when the government says that the wildfires are raging and moving toward your town, you evacuate. But what if the government tells you that the wildfires are raging and moving toward your town and the only evidence for it is some normal backyard campfires? Do you evacuate then? Or do you stay in your home in an open violation of the evacuation command? I hope you and the others reading here can follow the analogy. There are too many open ICU beds for this mysterious virus to be labeled a national or even statewide epidemic.
We must test our civil leaders the same way that we test our religious leaders...they both must speak from within their God-given authority.
...it's been a looooonnnnnggggg "two weeks to flatten the curve."
Dear Bro Gleason,
ReplyDeleteThanks, I'm glad it can be a blessing. May it help God's people to obey the truth and flee error.
Dear Bro Voegtlin,
I would agree that I don't like wearing masks either and when I don't have to I don't. I believe the evidence that wearing masks slows or prevents spread is good, much better than for backyard fires being a forest fire. Furthermore, nobody will care if a bar spreads COVID to everyone, or if BLM protesters do it, but if COVID spreads through Fairhaven Baptist Church, why that is a tragedy and newsworthy, proof that the Christians are careless.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI don't know what Fairhaven is doing on this. I haven't kept track of that at all, or what almost anyone else is doing on this. I've been minding my own business very busy getting ready to move and then starting a new church. I didn't find out until recently, last two weeks, that a couple of friends had COVID a month or so ago, and it was serious, worse than a flu, and it caused things to shut down in both places for a few weeks, that it would also kill someone like my father if he got it, according to them. One of these said it wouldn't have shut things down in their church if they had taken precautions -- that's all it would have taken.
I don't think you would disagree with this, but two things can both be true, that is, we should take precautions still, and the government is a mess, that can't be trusted. I talked to an immunologist, PhD, very conservative, who said essentially this to me on the phone in a long conversation. The government is using this to accomplish something devious, I agree. The media is using it in a destructive way. Both of these are true.
One more thing. I've about reached my end of wanting to talk about this any more.
ReplyDeleteAn anonymous person commented, saying this post was attacking a particular church, while also saying what was in the post did not reflect what happened at that church. That comment did not get published because there is no desire to attack that church. We hope readers of this blog post will consider its content and seek to be edified rather than speculating. Furthermore, if the content of the post does not reflect what happened there, then maybe the anonymous party should take that into consideration as to whether there was some sort of secret attack in this blog post. May I draw attention again to the last paragraph of the post?
ReplyDeleteThe anonymous person also thought what was described in the post is not happening anywhere. There have been a number of comments to this post thst have not been published arguing that we should not wear masks, there is no pandemic, saying that this blog post is justifying the Nazis, that it would mean at Nuremberg the Nazis should not have been found guilty, and other such nonsense, so, sadly, this post is not dealing with something that is not happening.
I didn't publish the anonymous comment, because it is anonymous and making accusations against Brother Ross that I know are false. He's also saying that the post of Thomas is about one place, when I know of many, many places that qualify for this, and the first guy commenting wasn't in the mentioned church of the commenter. Much of what he says was not true, and he was anonymous, so we're not going to publish it.
ReplyDeleteI think the difference here isn't that this virus is particularly fatal or anything like that... But that too many people today are ready to blame and accuse others for when they get sick. They don't believe things are in God's hands. They have been taught to be victims and blame their fellow man and so unless you are doing some kind of thing to make yourself uncomfortable such as wear a mask, then there is the risk that some bitter uncharitable person will blame you for gettimg them sick. Even if you obviously didn't intend it even if it's obviously out of your hands and even though it can't even be proved whether it was you or not, they will still blame you due to the victimization "me" mentality, and the masks are the only protection against it. Even if they aren't effectively doing anything, this would still be the case. People who are afraid of being blamed by unreasonable people are forced to wear the masks even when there clearly is not a problem. Some bitter victimologist will use it as a pretext to place unreasonable blame, especially since they endure the suffering of the mask.
ReplyDeleteThe good thing is I'm not afraid of any of these accusations. They can say whatever they want and it's not true. This is because I know what a real danger is from a totally hyped up one. And I know that these bitter people can't actually do anything to me.
Anonymous, there may be some people like that, but that's not the whole story.
ReplyDeleteIn Britain, a recent survey found that on average, the British people think 7% of Brits have died from this. In reality, it's about 0.07%. The BBC has so stirred up fear, and I'm sure it's the same with the American media, that many of the British people are deathly afraid. I know someone whose children are afraid to go outside to play.
That's not bitter uncharitable people, that genuinely terrified people. The Bible describes them in Hebrews 2:15 -- through fear of death they are all their lifetime subject to bondage.
It's not a reasonable fear because it's not properly weighting the risks of the disease. But for unbelievers, there is a sense in which it is reasonable fear -- they aren't prepared for death, and if this or another disease kills them, they have no hope and no faith.
It is not our job to make them more afraid, it is our job to tell them of the Saviour who can remove their fear. When we do not take precautions, we tell them that we don't care about their fears. That's not how our Lord wants us to be. He had compassion on the people in their confused state.
You may have the right to do as you are doing but where does the Bible tell you to have that kind of attitude and action towards the lost?
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIf you are positive for COVID, which is very infectious, and you infect coworkers at a business, and that business has to shut down and loses a huge amount of money, and coworkers have family members who get very sick, are you sure you get to say "God is sovereign and it doesn't matter that I didn't take any precautions?"
What if your statement that masks don't do anything is simply false?
What if people with that kind of attitude justify secular rulers in shutting churches down? Do you think you are contributing to that?
Why do you get to put what makes you feel comfortable ahead of what helps others? If you care about what Christ taught, then you would rather have a millstone placed around your neck and get cast into the sea than cause someone to stumble. How about wearing a mask?
To Jon Gleason,
ReplyDeleteThat's all very true. Which is exactly why acting proportionately is more important than conforming to the unreasonable superstitions of the world. For instance. Should we also kneel down at the same idols that others do, because they might sincerely have superstitions about these things and we should take a charitable attitude by kneeling down, or doing any other number of things, purely in perspective of what error they might be thinking in their state of mind?
That simply isn't how errors are corrected. Now, if someone is so disturbed that they come out and ask me to do something that isn't clearly against what Scripture teaches such as put on a face mask, I have one ready in my pocket because I know they might ask. But the thing I'm not afraid of is being approached by some person, who is driven by some combination of sincere error and sincere envy, to come try to lecture me. Those people, what they are saying is just untrue, and I'm not afraid of them. I believe most people know this whole "two week slowdown" thing was over a long time ago, they are now simply wearing the mask in fear of being approached by others. It's a slippery slope from that to absolute authoritarian rule as well. So then, discernment applies to this case.
To KJB1611,
First, of course I get to say God is sovereign. Second, I never said masks do nothing, but I didn't say they did anything either; rather than either of these, I am trying to transcend that debate to point out that even if they were entirely ineffective, social pressure is the thing gripping the mask to our faces now, not reasonable countermeasures to a legitimately threatening contagion or any such thing as that. It's long been clear that sociological pressure is the only factor here. See Sweden.
"What if people with that kind of attitude justify secular rulers in shutting churches down?"
You know something, these hypothetical "what if's" remind me essentially of questions like "what if some African tribe never gets the Gospel" It belies an inward doubt whether the promises of God hold true or whether some weird scenario where "what if standing for some basic fact actually turns out to cause bad thing X and it's all my fault?" Even if it does, isn't that the Lord's will? What if speaking some truth causes the government to crack down on my church? Why are we vacillating over fears of what might happen if we act earnestly and truthfully, which is what we should do instead of conforming to worldly social pressure, which is now, clearly, to all of us all that this now is.
"Why do you get to put what makes you feel comfortable ahead of what helps others?"
And this is the exact thing I've been saying doesn't scare me one bit. For all you know, the mask is a greater detriment than a help. Just because a majority is scared into thinking otherwise is no excuse. What is uncomfortable or selfless is not always what helps others. In God's sight I maintain that what I am doing is actually more help than acting cowardly now. If I were uncharitable, my last step here would be to turn this question back around on you, but I won't do that.
Three things.
ReplyDelete1. Many people won't come out and ask you, they'll just walk away saying, "What kind of Christian is THAT? He won't even wear a mask, and he's supposed to love his neighbours." You'll never have a chance to explain your reasoning. You'll damage your testimony. It's completely contrary to I Corinthians 9, as far as I can see, where Paul described his willingness to abandon his freedoms for the sake of the Gospel.
2. We can safely agree that the governments have abused this whole situation. The same government that told me not to wear masks before now orders me to. Full of liars -- but I also don't believe that politicians in power would risk their positions by destroying their own economies unless they actually believe there's a real danger. FWIW.
3. I can't help but think that some of the kind of thinking you've expressed here was what made people have to live in the cities of refuge until the death of the high priest. The man who didn't carefully make sure his axe head was attached to the handle didn't get to say "God is sovereign." He had to go live in a city of refuge.
Greetings,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate both what Jon Gleason said to that apparently-not-so-brave soul named "Anonymous," and I like what Thomas Ross ("KJB1611") said to him or her as well.
I recommend a complete block of anonymous comments. I don't think this anonymous person is contributing anything useful to the conversation.
That's just my viewpoint. I've been glad not to have to read through what the non-Trinitarian gentleman ("George ____") said in his comments on this blog, and I'd be happy to be ignorant of the ideas of this person called "Anonymous."
I realize there are times when anonymous comments are good. There are times when I've sensed (even on this blog) that a certain answer may have come mostly because of who gave the question, and perhaps the question was not central to the answer. I.e., sometimes it seems that the one answering a comment or question picks up the baggage / background a certain person has and refers to it rather than, or in addition to, the main issue.
But, overall, I'd say anonymous comments are a distraction. I'd glad I don't have to moderate the blog. Thanks, Bro. Brandenburg, for doing it! I don't comment much, sometimes I disagree and still keep it to myself, but I have benefited from the blog.
E. T. Chapman
Hello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIn ancient times people thought disease was caused by humors being balanced; many today believe in the germ theory of disease. Should we transcend that debate as well and be noncommittal about it? Maybe the germ theory is a greater detriment than a help, and bleeding people like they did in ancient Rome is a better model.
Are you aware that not only the opposition parties in Sweden, both on the right and left, but even the person who put in place the lax policies in Sweden says that they were too loose and caused too many deaths?
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/swedish-covid-response-architect-says-policies-were-too-lax-resulted-in-too-many-deaths/
even apart from the question of whether their model would work in more densely populated parts of the world (e. g., maybe their model would work for Montana but not so much in Los Angeles county).
So maybe your stand is not for some truth, but you are willing to bring persecution on the Lord's churches, make it so they can't fulfill the Great Commission except with people who are into conspiracy theories, be a stumbling block to a huge percentage of the population, cause huge losses to businesses, cause a lot of people to get hospitalized, cause many more people to get sick, and some people to die, for something that is not standing for Biblical truth.
I think it is also ironic that you are talking about taking a stand against social pressure--which as the only alleged reason for mask wearing is probably as accurate as just citing Sweden without any nuance--while you are remaining anonymous on a blog.
Dear Bro Gleason,
ReplyDeleteGood points.
By the way, I appreciated hearing your background in a previous comment; it was a blessing. I don't get the sense that you are not serious either.
Thanks, Brother Thomas. I don't enjoy making the kind of comment I made in that thread but I hoped it would be profitable to our brother, and I'm glad you were blessed by it.
ReplyDeleteSometimes the Internet seems a very strange place.
Blessings to you.
Hi Jon Gleason,
ReplyDeleteCompletely agree with everything you've said here except one thing, I don't think people being unreasonable is damaging one's testimony. If someone is so superstitious that they would be offended, then they have bigger pre-existing problems than this situation; if they have bigger problems, then they would just as soon get offended at some other nonsensical thing. It's pointless to conform yourself to the world in order to avoid this, some people are pure unreasonable, and if it isn't one thing then it'll be another. Not that I don't think every person should be reached and hear the truth, but rather that whether or not you wear a mask, some will still find something to be offended by. Furthermore, accomodating the world hurts your witness with ACTUAL reasonable people in the process, the silent majority you hear so much about; much more than knowingly acting ridiculous to please the world (and it still won't be pleased despite this) will "help" your witness with unreasonable people.
I think that's the only small point of disagreement we have here: what about the fact this behavior is harming our witness with the silent majority of sane people, the people who aren't offended by every little trifle (such as not wearing masks) trifles that are unpredictable and outside of your control. You can never please such insane people as this. However, your decision of what to do is yours, of course, and we're free to discuss it furthermore, of course. The only exception would be if you feel like you'd rather block my comments, that's fine too, as it's not like I've been demonstrated to be wrong here so far.
KJB1611, just a thought if you haven't decided to block me yet:
I appreciate your comments. I am grateful that you took the time to write to me. If you want to blame me for those things, you can. I won't blame you back. It's just not right, nor is it wise to do that. We did the same things until this year, and many people died from diseases back then.
I, like everyone else until this year, refuse to place the blame for that on someone who unwittingly carried the disease. Despite the fact that many people died from diseases, every year! Now, if this were anything like the 1917-18 flu, not just a media bugaboo, then I would already be on your side on this. So then, act unforgiving, blame, then, I will be fine. I don't blame back. I do not hold anything against you.
Ok, actually I should apologize to KJB1611, I shouldn't tell you to act unforgiving. I really hope that you don't do that. I am just saying if you are going to do so, then I still won't get angry or try to turn the tables on that in anyway. I hope you understand that's what I mean. Have a good rest of your day.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Anonymous, apology accepted.
ReplyDeleteLost people are not reasonable people or they would not sacrifice their eternity. I Corinthians 9 was written to address how we best further the Gospel among people who have unreasonable expectations.
ReplyDeleteIt's not reasonable for anyone to care the origins of the meat that Paul wrote about but he said in I Corinthians 10 not to eat if an unbeliever pointed out to the believer that it was sacrificed to idols.
It wasn't reasonable for Jews, after the Messiah had come and the Gospel had gone to the Gentiles, to care about circumcision but Paul still circumcised Timothy.
It's not reasonable to make reasonableness the determinant.
You've said if this were anything like 1917-1918 rather than a media bugaboo, you'd already agree. This is not a binary situation -- it is neither like 17-18 nor entirely a media bugaboo. It is something in between the two. It is much more infectious than a normal flu bug and also more severe, especially for the obese, than a normal flu bug. It is much more than a media bugaboo -- and falls far short of the Spanish flu. To describe it as either is not very reasonable.
I would do something as long as it doesn't go against Scripture if they asked me to, that's why I carry around a face mask in my pocket. I am not one of those people who is just going to do it without someone verbally asking me to, and that's only out of respect for their request, not because it is in any way proportionate to the situation. Fortunately, I will gladly do something as simple as that if someone near me verbally asks.
ReplyDeleteWhat people should be not afraid of is social pressure to conform to outward appearances. And being afraid of causing offense to people with bigger problems who would be offended no matter what is not really an argument to excuse such behavior either. We can't be intimidated into wearing mask when the situation clearly does not call for it. Even if 90% of people are kneeling at idols, or wearing inappropriate clothing, it is not appropriate for me to do so, even if it might cause unreasonable offense, and even if other people mistakenly think it is irresponsible in some superstitious way. Errors are to be corrected rather than reinforced out of fear, however if the job isn't for you at least don't criticize those that do it. See what I'm saying? So far people have reacted in anger when I simply say I'm not conforming the way they are. Meanwhile, I haven't done the equivalent to them.
"It wasn't reasonable for Jews, after the Messiah had come and the Gospel had gone to the Gentiles, to care about circumcision but Paul still circumcised Timothy."
Later on he refused to do the same for Titus because it had become a stumbling block. Gal. 2:3.
But as for the rest of what you say, that's a difference in our judgment of the situation I suppose. I was with most people until the facts came in about this.
Clinical studies have shown that depression causes a weakened immune system. Masks cause depression. So then how do you know that this practice isn't creating more vulnerable people? The science would suggest you are. I won't cast blame on you for spreading disease of course. That is highly uncharitable. I will say though that it's pretty clear these are actually having the opposite effect and hurting more than they help, therefore making it pretty hypocritical to criticize someone else simply for putting an end to the practice and telling others these scientific based facts about this situation. Considering the risk factors here, the situation is being worsened not improved by the supposed countermeasure. How about just not coughing on people?
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThis is very likely my last response, but I wanted to note that you have said nothing about what I pointed out about Sweden, but are now making new highly dubious claims, such as, if one takes your last comment seriously, more people will be sick if masks are worn than without them.
I will be interested in seeing the PubMed studies to which you refer that show that surgeons and others who wear masks all day have higher rates of depression and weakened immune systems and more illness. I hope you have actual science here, confirmed by things like objective trials and objective evidence, and not just something you read on social media reposted by who knows who or some video you watched, or some other hearsay.
Again, I'm likely done. Thanks again.
Hi KJB1611, I'm glad you accepted my apologies. Is there anything worthwhile in what you pointed out that is worthy of discussion here? I'd be interested if you could give us in your own words what that is. I've cited the country as an example of doing things right and so far no demonstration has been provided to lead to any other conclusion than this.
ReplyDeleteAnd another thing yes, I do note the many studies that have shown that depression causes weakened immune systems. No, that science and the statistical analysis behind this connection is not meant not to be taken seriously, or else the studies would not have been published. It is very much meant to be taken serious... that is, if we're following the results of clinical studies and analyzing risk factors as opposed to anecdotes, and so on. Stuff the media irresponsibly spreads to us. I am someone who won't follow the hype on either side but only follow the results where they point.
As I said before (although you didn't respond to it at all back then), based on these true facts, falling in line is a greater DETRIMENT than a help. It's actually making more people become sick. However, despite this I still will not single out and blame a person following this behavior for causing sickness, as this would not be charitable. That's kind of like how Robespierre operated, not Christ. Just get people into a mob frenzy and hunt down the nonconformist without first ascertaining the facts. In this case whether or not the conformists are the true cause of whatever problem there is.
Surgeons have always worn masks, so that doesn't really seem to be a valid argument for people outside of those circumstances. And as for the fact that illness is worse here, compare US (or say, California or New York) to Sweden. Do you need me to go get you the articles and data yourself or are you able to find it?
Thomas,
ReplyDeleteMost of your information is excessively biased and inaccurate because it is fed by minions of the antichrist mainstream media. You are also feeding into the very power-control-fear factor that puppets of the antichrist are pushing for, killing our freedom (whatever it is we have left), in the process. No, that is not a conspiracy theory just very evident as one understanding the times and exercising spiritual discernment.
Here is some good info that might be of benefit:
“Why Americans Should Adopt the Sweden Model on Covid-19,” Mises Institute, Aug. 15, 2020 https://mises.org/wire/why-americans-should-adopt-sweden-model-covid-19
In Kansas, counties with mask mandates have about 77% more daily cases of coronavirus than counties without mandates. Kansas Department of Health Secretary tried to mislead the public by manipulating a chart (“KDHE doctored a Covid case chart to justify mask mandates,” The Sentinel, Kansas Policy Institute, Aug. 7, 2020).
https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/coronavirus_good_and_odd_news.php
Dear (last) Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIf "most of [my] information is ... inaccurate," could you please point out at least 15 things I said in the post that were inaccurate, with clear documentation? Thanks.
Saying that I am promoting the antichrist is a pretty serious charge, and quoting one libertarian think tank (that also promotes articles saying we should abolish the police and have private security forces instead, e. g., anarchy, since they are very, very, very, very limited government) is not going to prove your point. I am not saying that one cannot even make a case for what Sweden did (which, by the way, was NOT promoting conspiracy theories), especially in a country like Sweden, where the population is more spread out, where they have very low COVID risk factors such as being one of the countries in the world with the fewest overweight people, etc. But let's be honest and admit that the people in Sweden who promoted the lax policy, as well as their political opponents on the right and the left, have all said that the policy was too lax when their death rate was 10 times that of Norway, and that, say, Singapore or Chicago are different than Sweden. If we leave that part out and just quote the libertarian think tank, we are not painting an accurate picture, are we?
Nor do statements about which counties in Kansas have more or less COVID cases prove that masks make people more sick. The counties with more COVID could have started wearing masks as a result of an increase of cases, they could be more urban vs. more rural, etc. It is a totally logically fallacious argument. Should I say that masks cause COVID because in 2019 nobody was wearing masks, and nobody had COVID, while now countries where there are masks are countries where there is COVID?
Perhaps it would be good to study basic principles of logic, as commanded in the scriptural commands to have a sound mind, to reason, etc. before practicing the very evil-speaking mentioned in the post by telling me that I am promoting the antichrist, telling me that I am spreading fear when I am actually not afraid, etc. Maybe disobeying Scripture by promoting false accusations against godly people, and not telling the truth even about wicked people, is not fearing God. That is a good fear--fear of God--which there will be less of if we go with misinformation and false accusations.
Thanks.
Dear (last) Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteOne more thing--if your Kansas stats are meant to be taken seriously, and if you have even thought about them, then they would (supposedly) prove that wearing masks spreads COVID more than not wearing masks. This can easily be tested by science. Get 1,000 people who think like you to go to hospitals where people are getting tested for COVID. Have 500 of them take the people that are COVID positive coming out of the hospital go up to the COVID positive person, have him without a mask and you without a mask, and sit a foot apart from the COVID positive person and talk for 15 minutes. Then take another group and have the COVID positive person wear a mask, the people who believe like you wear a mask, sit a foor apart, and talk for 15 minutes. Have an independent organization monitor which group of people, the masked or the non-masked, come down with COVID at a higher rate. If the people who are wearing the masks have more COVID than the people who don't, you will have some real evidence for your position. Perhaps you can volunteer to be part of the non-masked group, and have people you love and care for be part of that group too, to take a stand against the antichrist and show people that you really believe what you are saying when you accuse me of promoting the antichrist.
Thanks again.
Someone asked about hydroxychloroquine and if some support for it and then a change in that indicates a conspiracy.
ReplyDeleteHere is what the FDA said about why they authorized it and then revoked the authorization:
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or
With a new virus what may or may not work develops as information increases. If you employ logic, the explanation that they gave makes a lot more sense than a conspiracy explanation. Why would the conspiracy first promote it and then not promote it? How does the conspiracy control not only the US federal government, state governments, so many other governments, etc.?
The point here is not whether it will turn out that that drug, perhaps in combination with others, may end up being beneficial or not beneficial. I don't want to get into that discussion here. The point is that it certainly does not require a conspiracy to explain the emergency authorization and then the withdrawal of that authorization based on incoming evidence from clinical trials.
The same person asked why YouTube got rid of a viral video promoting the drug for COVID. They did so because it violated their guidelines and they concluded it was misinformation. We may agree or disagree with their guidelines as a private company that can do whatever it wants with its own website--I would tend to disagree, while also thinking the government absolutely should NOT force them to do its bidding, but allow them to continue to censor whatever they wish, because the government telling them that they must sponsor videos they don't want to is a cure worse than the disease--but what a private company decides to allow on its website or not allow hardly proves a conspiracy.
Thank you for the person who brought this up in an unpublished comment (and who didn't want the comment published) at least being polite and not accusing me of being a Nazi, supporting the antichrist, etc. It is appreciated.
To the Anonymous with whom I've been speaking (not the other one, why won't people use their names or even a nom de guerre?)
ReplyDeleteYou said this: "So far people have reacted in anger when I simply say I'm not conforming the way they are."
Sorry, I missed that. Who reacted in anger? I believe you are making a bad mistake but I'm not in the least angry about it.
You said this: "And being afraid of causing offense to people with bigger problems who would be offended no matter what is not really an argument to excuse such behavior either."
That's hardly what I've advocated. Our church building is surrounded by people who are on good terms with us but are living in fear. Why should I put a barrier up for them?
There's a difference between Titus and Timothy, BTW. One had a Jewish mother and grandmother and had known the Old Testament Scriptures from a child. He was thoroughly equipped to minister to Jews, except for one problem. Titus was not. The problem was taken care of with Timothy because it was profitable for the ministry.
I do wonder why you are so willing to accept the scientists who claim masks cause depression, and the scientists that say depression causes weakened immunity, and not accept the scientists who say that masks help reduce the spread of the virus. And honestly, do you really think wearing a mask for half an hour while you go into a shop to buy something, or for an hour or two while in a church service, is going to cause you or anyone else to be depressed? Is that reasonable?
I guess it doesn't matter. The Scriptural principles are clear. The Bible does not tell us that covid is a dire threat or a fraud. It tells us to use a sound mind. I'm not persuaded that you are doing so, but you are not persuaded I am doing so.
Much more importantly, the Bible tells us how to respond to things that are nothing in the world (I Cor. 8:4). Even if you think covid is nothing at all in the world, you have to convince yourself that you are acting in response to it consistently with the principles laid out in I Corinthians 8-10, and elsewhere in Scripture, regarding meat sacrificed to idols. Even if you are right that it is nothing, those principles apply to you. If it is something, other principles apply as well, but at the very least, those do.
Hi Jon,
ReplyDelete"Sorry, I missed that. Who reacted in anger?"
When I stated my actions, I was spontaneously asked "Why do you get to put what makes you feel comfortable ahead of what helps others?"
This is out of anger because it presumes that I'm putting what's comfortable ahead of any other consideration when that's clearly not the case. It's an uncharitable assumption built into the question, and the reason for that is anger. Purely doing what's comfortable wasn't the point of what I said, yet it was loaded into the question spontaneously asked against me. Rather, in fact, virtue signalling works by implying that simply doing things that create discomfort must mean you are selfless and virtuous, even if the action may be aggravating a problem. The important thing to such a person signalling is that they appear virtuous, that they are able to say to other people that they did something good, but not that they be addressing any real problem. We see this in so called "slacktivism" all the time.
The larger point here is that I'm not angry with what you are doing. But people are apparently angry with what I'm doing. So there's an imbalance here. The demands to conform to your specific program and accusations of maliciously spreading the disease if I don't just because I don't wear magic masks every day even without being told to, is what prompted me to post. And trying to back that up by coming up with an experiment that doesn't even control for social distancing doesn't really amount to a scientific proof. The fact is that for the aforesaid reasons masks are making more people vulnerable, but I accept that not everyone understands this until they are shown the regional data.
"Why should I put a barrier up for them?"
If you honestly believe it is then don't. But we ought to at least allow others to follow the facts themselves without accusing them of causing the virus.
"I do wonder why you are so willing to accept the scientists who claim masks cause depression, and the scientists that say depression causes weakened immunity, and not accept the scientists who say that masks help reduce the spread of the virus."
Because one was a known fact before this crisis, the other was something justified post-fact.
"And honestly, do you really think wearing a mask for half an hour while you go into a shop to buy something, or for an hour or two while in a church service, is going to cause you or anyone else to be depressed?"
We were dealing with averages. It's no different than the claim that not wearing a mask for a few hours is not very likely to cause someone to spread the virus. And indeed it isn't. So is that sufficient to explain why nobody should wear masks?
Will you accept that rationale? If so then we've reached an agreement, my friend.
"Even if you are right that it is nothing, those principles apply to you."
I don't wear inappropriate clothing even if it might make me seem more palatable to people. If simply acting with Christian dignity is creating barriers, maybe that's for the best that we maintain that separation and standing apart from the world.
Anon
This is the last anonymous comment I'm allowing on this post.
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWhen scientists do experiments they seek to control all other factors so that they can see if the one they are testing is it. That is why the test I suggested kept both test groups the same distance apart. If you can stay a football field apart from other people, I'm sure not wearing masks will be just as effective as wearing them.
The point is that your hypothesis that wearing masks spreads more disease is very easy to test. Perhaps just looking at infection rates from hospitals where surgeons wear masks and third world "death ward" hospitals where proper PPE is not present would prove the point.
Dear Anon,
ReplyDeleteYou state that you accept one form of study because it was pre-covid. For many years pre-covid, surgeons have worn masks to prevent spreading disease to the patients on which they were operating. That's not something justified post-fact.
I don't think they did that just to set the stage for a conspiracy to get us to wear masks in a fake pandemic. They did it because both scientific studies and common sense tell us that some diseases are spread through breath and that barriers to stop those diseases help prevent their spread.
No, we aren't in agreement.
But, Kent is justifiably shutting down your side of the discussion so I'll not say more.
It is interesting that many of the conspiracy people say one only follows medical science on COVID because of fear--it can't be loving your neighbor--but so many of the people who have submitted published and unpublished defenses of conspiracy on this post in the comments are anonymous--afraid, it seems, to even give their names. I don't think they are afraid that Big Pharma will kill them for commenting on the post, either--they are afraid of bucking the peer pressure of fellow conspiracy theorists.
ReplyDeleteHi KJV1611,
ReplyDeleteThe underlying hypothesis is that depression causes a weakened immune system, and this creates more vulnerable people who can then become infected themselves and carriers. This is just one of the hidden costs to mask mandates for everyone. There are other costs as well, if you haven't considered the possibility of it. The regional data supports the fact that the hidden costs are, in this instance, overall increasing the spread of COVID and other diseases, not decreasing them.
This is notwithstanding any short term trial you do that doesn't control for social distancing by sitting one foot apart and talking for 15 minutes. That would show that not social distancing increases the spread rate.
If people are still distancing you haven't show anything about masks in an everyday scenario. If we are in a hospital working with sick people, then the effectiveness of a mask increases far to the point where the hidden costs are negligible in comparison. This fact alone does not mean we mandate people by law to wear them everywhere they go and not allow them to use their own judgment, which is in effect what you are suggesting is appropriate, and enforced, as you suggest by example, of social shunning and purely bitter accusations of spreading disease. The fact is the situation is reversed, as trying to lock everyone down is worsening the situation. Furthermore, I'm trying to be unaccusatory in my manner of showing this and I appreciate the fact you accepted my apology of you being unforgiving. I would rather that you were forgiving, KJB1611.
Lastly, why not just not cough on people? Isn't that 99% as effective with social distancing? Are we supposed to be treated like animals now where the overlords put muzzles on us because big brother media decides it's best and constantly puts out spin stories on it?
To KJB1611
ReplyDeleteIf you do a short term trial that doesn't control for distancing (at least multiple feet apart), that wouldn't really prove that masks are going to be a more effective solution in the real world, it would only prove that not distancing causes greater spread of disease. So far we haven't seen any arguing that maintaining a safe distance is bad or that we shouldn't do it. We all agree, maintain as much distance away from people's personal space, especially this flu season. You won't see me disagreeing, that we shouldn't be "sitting one foot apart" as you say, with or without masks!
To Jon,
Masks aren't particularly more effective than just not coughing on people in 99% of situations apart from close proximity in a hospital situation. That's why, until this year, they were normally only worn in hospital settings. I hope we understand this.
You might be able to argue something is 1% more effective in general situations: But what about the hidden costs such as other changes in behavior that come along with this, which increase the risk, that are inadvertently caused by this mandate?
I believe the regional data (you can compare for yourself) strongly reflects the fact these hidden costs far outweigh the negligible benefit of direct prevention by mask. Especially considering this isn't 20% mortality like they were predicting it might be. If it were— if there were tangible, indisputable dangers, which we can show are not sociological, confirmation bias, placebo or media-related effects, only then maybe we would need a re-evaluation. As it is, with the current situation all that's happening is more people are getting sick in exactly the places wherever this is implemented and it's simply prolonging the situation and creating a downward spiral in those areas, as the problem gets worse, the reaction gets worse, thus making the problem worse, etc. and it feeds into itself. But only in those areas with masks. This is because whether people get COVID or not, they are still healthy enough to walk around most of the time, even with their weakened immune systems (as has been pointed out) due to masks.
People die from diseases every year. Since everyone's making a big deal out of it, we hear more about individual cases right now. But in fact, people have contracted the flu and died every year. You just probably didn't hear as much about it because the media wasn't making such a commotion about the subject. But these things shouldn't mean we blame everyone around us who isn't wearing a mask for spreading diseases, simply because we are overestimating the risks of the situation and also ignoring the hidden costs that come along with the assumptions the media has told us to make.
Until recently, people had never been this ready to point fingers for things for reasons they can't prove. You can blame the political and cultural situation for that; Nowadays, people are called racists & the cause of problems for no reason or for highly nonsensical reasons, for instance. There is just more of an atmosphere of accusations nowadays.
This wouldn't be a particularly unusual situation apart from the media kerfuffle about this, and those that, in turn, automatically believe said reports, especially when it dresses itself in quasi-science, which is unfortunately many people. I believe that for that reason, and for that reason alone, this is a crisis. The proper response, I also think, is to show people regional data, in order to demonstrate the true effect of this scientifically.
Hi Justin and Andrew,
ReplyDeleteCould you please give me the objective studies you are referencing from Pub Med that show that wearing masks actually spreads COVID, and also explain why world leaders all over the place are so dense that they can't figure this out--all of them? I don't want a YouTube video or somebody's testimonial, but studies that show what you are saying, and an explanation for why the CDC and similar organizations all over the world don't see what you see. Thanks.
Hey KJB1611,
ReplyDeleteThat's honestly not a very convincing argument. Doesn't take you much farther than the one foot apart trials you were mentioning earlier. But still, I'm glad it seems like everyone has backed down from the railing that was going on earlier.
Andrew, you said, "Masks aren't particularly more effective than just not coughing on people in 99% of situations apart from close proximity in a hospital situation. That's why, until this year, they were normally only worn in hospital settings. I hope we understand this."
ReplyDeleteSorry, but this is silly. They were worn in hospital situations prior to this year when A) the patients themselves had a highly infectious and dangerous disease, to protect health workers and B) to protect particularly vulnerable patients (in operating theatres, etc). It wasn't something magical about being in a hospital, it was the level of risk.
This whole thing has been politicised, largely by leftist and abusive / overbearing (and dishonest) governments, and in response a lot of Christians have abandoned logic and spiritual considerations in their reaction to that dishonesty and abuse.