tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post938219889187869019..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: The Debate over the Prohibition of Alcoholic Beverage part threeKent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-46142769379316247552009-12-12T12:20:05.109-08:002009-12-12T12:20:05.109-08:00There was a comment made by one poster several tim...There was a comment made by one poster several times in support of his argument: Jesus drank wine of course because He drank Passover wine which was alcoholic.<br /><br />Yet, a study of the OT passages (including Leviticus 23) will show that the Jews were to remove yeast and yeast products (ie. Leaven, which is a type of sin) from their dwellings, and were not to have leavened products during Passover and the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread that immediately followed Passover. That meant Biblically that no obedient Jew would be observing Passover supper with leavened bread or leavened/alcoholic wine. This type of putting sin and corruption out is reemphasized in the NT in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8. Jesus fulfilled the type as there was no sin in Him - and He underwent no corruption in the grave.<br /><br />As Prophet, Priest, and King, it was Biblically forbidden for Jesus to partake of alcoholic beverages - and He would have obeyed and fulfilled His own Word.Jerry Boueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11939572388745111915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-79575134433513643632009-08-21T16:04:18.614-07:002009-08-21T16:04:18.614-07:00Titus,
Very interesting,thanks for the info.
I&#...Titus,<br /><br />Very interesting,thanks for the info.<br /><br />I'm also glad that your "moonshine" days are over. Ha! Ha! God bless you brother.Garynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-69353201139990012682009-08-21T07:33:51.102-07:002009-08-21T07:33:51.102-07:00Hi Gary,
Yes, I would say that the yayin in Jer. ...Hi Gary,<br /><br />Yes, I would say that the <i>yayin</i> in Jer. 40:10 is straight out of the vat, i.e. fresh juice. The reason is that the word translated as "gather" is <i>'acaph</i>, which means "gather, collect, or assemble", and can be used to refer to harvesting. This suggests to me that Jeremiah was speaking of the juice of grapes that had just been harvested and assembled together in a winepress, and referring to that process specifically.<br /><br />Yes, in a hot climate, grape juice will begin to ferment because of the action of natural yeasts which coat the skins of grapes and which get into the juice during the process of mashing (even without the addition of brewer's yeasts, which most modern winemakers also use). However, the problem with this process alone is that the alcohol can quickly turn into vinegar, because of the buildup of acetic acid due to the oxidation of the ethanol. To prevent this, the ancients (the Greeks in particular) would mix in various types of limes that neutralised the acids, and then were filtered out. One of the naughty things I did in college as a chemist before I got saved was to help underage friends ferment their own wine in their dorm rooms. <br /><br />Boiling down wine WOULD work to both kill off the yeasts that aid fermentation, as well as driving off any ethanol already present (which boils at ~173ºF). However, boiling wine down can also begin to caramelise the sugars in the juice, which would make the juice not sweet (or as sweet), making it only really fit for cooking with. <br /><br />To prepare wine that people would want to drink, you generally had to do more than just let the juice sit out in the sun for a while!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-52537811579681844192009-08-20T10:01:15.715-07:002009-08-20T10:01:15.715-07:00Titus,
I am truly just an observer in this discus...Titus,<br /><br />I am truly just an observer in this discussion. My knowledge on wine is very limited, but I was interested in your last remark about jer 40:10. I'm assuming that you are <br />Saying that the juice is being gathered before it can ferment. I found a site that said that in Israel because of the heat that the juice could start to ferment enough to be concidered alcoholic in as little as a couple of days. I also called a local winery and they said here in Virginia the process could be done in about a week. I thought (but don't know outside of what I have seen written) that the juice was boiled down in ancient Israel to keep it as grape juice, <br />Otherwise it would ferment. What are your thoughts?Garynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-18239795625525290892009-08-20T06:54:59.054-07:002009-08-20T06:54:59.054-07:00Don,
Titus, look at Jer 40.10 again. "but ye...Don,<br /><br /><i>Titus, look at Jer 40.10 again. "but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels..."<br /><br />Are the harvesters gathering olives or oil? Grapes or wine? This is a case where the fruit is described in terms of the finished product. It is a figure of speech.</i><br /><br />Sorry, but no. You can't simply dismiss any evidence that doesn't fit your preconception as "a figure of speech" (which wouldn't even negate the point anywise!)<br /><br />What Jeremiah is describing is the collection of the finished products of agricultural activity, <b>as they are being gathered</b>. Oil fresh from the press, summer fruits fresh from the tree....and wine (yayin) fresh from the press. Yes, the finished product is in view - but your <i>assumption</i> that the finished product has been sitting around for the time required for the wine to become alcoholic is spurious.<br /><br />I also note with interest that you basically ignored Isaiah 16:10 and Jeremiah 48:33. These specifically say that yayin is yayin as soon as it comes from the winepress. <br /><br />Your dismissal of reglerjoe's point about Hosea 4:11 also needs to be addressed. The use of tirosh and yayin in parallel shows that the two terms can be used synonymously. There is linguistic overlap between the two. This is true, whether you wish it to be or not.<br /><br />And lastly, you said,<br /><br /><i>I don't think these passages are convincing to the moderationist. He can easily dismiss them.</i><br /><br />I suspect that you are right. Those who wish to justify themselves at the expense of taking the full counsel of God into account will always be able to justify dismissing passages from the Word of God which contradict their personal preference. This is nothing new.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-81271115570282298572009-08-19T14:52:39.911-07:002009-08-19T14:52:39.911-07:00Thanks TheePitts. We'll be dealing with other...Thanks TheePitts. We'll be dealing with other passages, but thanks.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-4063788130385991332009-08-19T13:07:35.439-07:002009-08-19T13:07:35.439-07:00Kent,
I came across your site a couple of months...Kent, <br /><br />I came across your site a couple of months ago. I enjoy it very much. I am impressed with your articulation in writing. Most everything you have presented, I certainly agree with. I have heard few take positions, that I have held for over five decades, on a number of positions you have addressed. <br /><br />I have always found Proverbs chapter 31 intriguing. Seldom have I heard anyone address Proverbs 31:6&7, but these verses are one key to understanding this entire chapter. The proper understanding of this chapter would destroy many of the 'Proverbs 31 Woman' cottage industries. <br /><br />First, let me say, that the Scripture is of no private interpretation; that is, we do not interpret Scripture, a premise that is absolutely necessary to truth found in the Scriptures, which is, by the way, not opinion, but fact. Scripture interprets Scripture and we gain absolute understanding. If Luke chapter one, verse three is believed, we can have perfect understanding of truth. Our job is not to interpret, but to understand the Scriptures, which is what we glory in, "knowing and understanding God". Jeremiah 9:23,24<br /><br />My position on the consumption of alcohol is that God does not permit it as a recreational drug, nor is it permitted as a medicine at all. Alcohol is a drug, just as cocaine, marijuana or any of the other drugs of recreation. Alcohol in the medical realm is never used as a medicine, even in the case concerning Timothy.<br /><br />I am very thankful for the testimony of Edward. God saved him out of that sin. God saved me from that sin. I have never even tasted any alcoholic beverage.<br /><br />I will stop here. I noticed that you said there was more to come concerning this prohibition, and I don't want to get ahead of you.<br /><br />Dios le bendiga; pero más importante, bendice a Dios.theepittsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-64591867495020154772009-08-18T23:11:18.955-07:002009-08-18T23:11:18.955-07:00"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to ..."Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." Proverbs 31:6,7theepittsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-32644958045513684742009-08-18T18:44:08.035-07:002009-08-18T18:44:08.035-07:00What about Proverbs 31:6-7?
If you have mentioned...What about Proverbs 31:6-7?<br /><br />If you have mentioned it could you direct me to it please?<br /><br />BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-73010272673907428592009-08-17T10:08:37.474-07:002009-08-17T10:08:37.474-07:00Edward,
Excellent testimony. I've heard the ...Edward,<br /><br />Excellent testimony. I've heard the same exact testimony from others too whom God has saved. Praise the Lord!<br /><br />We thank the Lord for you!Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-85652586972567848112009-08-16T23:29:11.602-07:002009-08-16T23:29:11.602-07:00To all,
I, without a shadow of a doubt believe tha...To all,<br />I, without a shadow of a doubt believe that drinking alcohol is a sin. Here's why. I was an alcoholic. Even though I had some Christian beliefs and not attending any congregation, I still had a strong conviction that what I was doing was wrong. My road to Salvation is a long story but to make it short, I surrendered my life to Jesus and was and still am in total submission to the Holy Spirit. When I got saved I prayed to the Lord to help me stop drinking for I could not. I had tried but failed every single time until that day of Salvation. Within a split second of asking God to deliver me from this wicked vice, I had no more desire to drink. It's been 17 months and I can't even look at alcohol without feeling nauseous. Miracle? YES!! How can anyone turn their back on God after a deliverance like that? I didn't come to Christ because of this experience, it happened after I came to Him in total submission to Him. I gave up control of my life, I wanted and want to live for Him. No one and I mean no one can tell me that it's O.K to drink in moderation or that scripture teaches it's o.k. Then one day when the Lord found a church for me, I heard this teaching from this same man of the Lord and understood every single word, based on scripture of course. It's sad at how people can refute this when it's right there. One thing, God is real, He plucked me from the fire and this is my testimony. To God be all the glory. Thank you Pastor Brandenburg for clarifying to me what God wants from us.<br /><br />In Christ,<br />Edward PlateroAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-14875949871565654942009-08-15T22:31:07.970-07:002009-08-15T22:31:07.970-07:00Why does Prov.31:6&7 never enter into the disc...Why does Prov.31:6&7 never enter into the discussion?theepittsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-73445575516357222422009-08-15T12:28:59.575-07:002009-08-15T12:28:59.575-07:00reglerjoe,
The Hosea 4.11 is the only reference w...reglerjoe,<br /><br />The Hosea 4.11 is the only reference where tirosh is used with respect to intoxication. It should be noted that it is used in combination with yayin. Every other reference (as I understand it) tirosh pretty clearly is referring to juice.<br /><br />So... it seems to need the help of yayin to make it into the intoxicating category.<br /><br />FWIW<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-22151214414778364622009-08-15T11:08:52.983-07:002009-08-15T11:08:52.983-07:00Don,
Oops, I meant last, not late.Don,<br /><br />Oops, I meant last, not late.Garynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-6745900312624423002009-08-15T09:31:33.284-07:002009-08-15T09:31:33.284-07:00Don,
Thank you for your late post, it made me fee...Don,<br /><br />Thank you for your late post, it made me feel alot better about myself. All you can eat buffets are a weakness of mine. <br /><br />Gary Webb<br /><br />I agree that God used these men, but that their doctrine was not flawless by far. I just thew them out there, because there doesn't seem to be anyone from the wine is ok side blogging here and Martin's comment was kindda funny.<br /><br />I am still curious about 1 Timothy 3:8 and Deuteronomy 14:26 though.Garynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-84073969775638059852009-08-14T04:13:12.324-07:002009-08-14T04:13:12.324-07:00I am glad that Martin Luther & John Calvin dis...I am glad that Martin Luther & John Calvin discovered & were able to highlight the doctrine of salvation by grace. However, I do not think that their Christianity was especially Biblical in many areas: consubstantiation, Augustinian election, baby baptism, coercion of the population to be "Christian", etc., etc. I certainly do not want to get into a debate over these "great" Christians here, but I am only pointing out that I have little reason to regard the example of their Christian living as something that is to be emulated for NT Christians.Gary Webbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-68097938034549497582009-08-13T22:38:06.287-07:002009-08-13T22:38:06.287-07:00Kent, this is your post. I am not trying to argue ...Kent, this is your post. I am not trying to argue my points here, but rather to highlight what I see as weaknesses in your argument. I don't see that we have much more to say on this point.<br /><br />With respect to some of Gary's comments above, I thought about the 'gluttony' line that he mentions and people so often use. I am curious why people think that is an effective argument. The Bible very very rarely mentions gluttony. It doesn't occur in any of the sin lists in the NT that I am aware of. In fact, the only two times I can find it mentioned in the NT is in the charges made against Christ by the Pharisees as reported by Jesus himself in Mt 11.19 and Lk 7.34 (the word used here is 'gluttonous'). The only other mentions I can find are two OT references where "glutton" is coupled with "drunkard", Dt 21.20 and Pr 23.21. This seems like the whole "gluttony is a sin" line may be a tad overblown.<br /><br />Not that I think we should run around and pig out at every buffet...<br /><br />But enough for now. I'm ready for round 4, Kent, whenever you are.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-71704275783254572222009-08-13T21:24:02.608-07:002009-08-13T21:24:02.608-07:00Don Johnson (I think) said that tirosh was the Heb...Don Johnson (I think) said that <i>tirosh</i> was the Hebrew word for juice. It is my understanding that <i>tirosh</i> can refer to juice and fermented drink, or else how would Hos. 4:11 make since? Can juice "take away the heart." Yet we see <i>tirosh</i> also being used to refer to grapes in Mic. 6:15. (not "sweet wine" as in the KJV)<br /><br />It would seem fairly obvious to me that <i>yayin</i> and <i>tirosh</i> have double meaning, just like our word "cider".reglerjoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850185571444567195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-45830665211652363822009-08-13T19:44:48.936-07:002009-08-13T19:44:48.936-07:00I'm curious as to see what you say
in part 4....I'm curious as to see what you say <br />in part 4. The debate has been interesting. I personally don't drink, because of the stumbling block issue. I think that in today's society that Christian's should refrain from this "freedom". <br /><br /> With that being said how do you explain verses like 1 Timothy 3:8 where it says for the deacons to not drink "much wine". It doesn't seem to totally forbid the wine (or are they being told to not drink to much grape juice).<br /><br />I know that from part one that you don't like the excuse of Christians drank it thru out the first 1800 years after Jesus, but how can they all be wrong?<br /><br />John Calvin received aprox. 250 gallons of wine annually and used Deuteronomy 14:26 to help justify the drinking of it.<br /><br />How about those puritans and their alcohol. They were against drunkeness, but moderation was not sinful to them.<br /><br />"Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women". Martin Luther<br /><br />I heard another person mention that gluttony was a sin, not food. Drunkeness was a sin, but not the wine, which is from God.<br /><br />Sorry if I'm not totally on topic with your post, but Martin Luther put me in a funny state of mind.Garynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-4470937233670934552009-08-13T17:00:48.284-07:002009-08-13T17:00:48.284-07:00Don,
Let's say you're right. We're w...Don,<br /><br />Let's say you're right. We're wrong. I haven't seen the lexical evidence either from Jaeggli or you. We've provided multiple lexiconal material for you. Is that just dismissed? How has it been no lexiconal material? And when we provide it, you say, "It doesn't matter, I need Bible." So we give you very good biblical and you just say that it is meaningless. There isn't a word for alcohol, so it isn't going to happen. It doesn't exist, but we do have the description in Prov 23. And that in depth bibsac article. You say this flies in the face of usage and evidence. I don't see that at all. I have placed the burden of proof squarely upon myself and I believe met it. <br /><br />You haven't given me anything that says I'm wrong. You haven't disproven the hithpael. The best you've got on the yayin from the winepresses is that it could be future alcohol. That's very weak, Don. Those passages don't read with any sense of that kind of figure of speech being used. I see the evidence being on our side in heaping portions. The other side not having anything. I don't get that.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-72182071541379121982009-08-13T16:28:02.823-07:002009-08-13T16:28:02.823-07:00Hi Gary
I think we'll just have to agree to d...Hi Gary<br /><br />I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see much profit in saying the same things over and over again.<br /><br />On the other hand, we might have to disagree anyway, even if we don't agree about it!!<br /><br />To say that yayin means juice flies in the face of all biblical usage as well as lexical evidence. You are welcome to the view, but I don't think that you can prove it.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-67256023639905563602009-08-13T04:53:47.652-07:002009-08-13T04:53:47.652-07:00Don,
I do not understand how you get what you do o...Don,<br />I do not understand how you get what you do out of Jeremiah 40:10. Where is there ANY indication in that passage that the "finished product" is alcoholic? Juice is the finished product, mashed from grapes, just like oil is the finished product, beaten from olives. The making of fermented wine is a fairly complex activity, if it is to be good for drinking. We will all admit that, over time, juice will ferment (Matthew 9:17 - again a passage that clearly demonstrates the "2 wine" truth, but which you do not accept). However, juice that ferments on its own normally is not what people today call "wine"; rather it is just juice that has rotted. You are reading something into Jeremiah 40:10 that is from your own imagination, not something that is stated in the text. And again, since the lexicons also tell us that yayin & oinos actually refer to juice - fermented or not - why do you say that it doesn't? If the word automobile means cars that run on gas or cars that run on electricity, I cannot deny that an electric car is an automobile just because in MY thinking a REAL car runs on gas.Gary Webbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-52003680659368384732009-08-12T20:58:43.860-07:002009-08-12T20:58:43.860-07:00Sigh...
Titus, look at Jer 40.10 again. "but...Sigh...<br /><br />Titus, look at Jer 40.10 again. "but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels..."<br /><br />Are the harvesters gathering olives or oil? Grapes or wine? This is a case where the fruit is described in terms of the finished product. It is a figure of speech.<br /><br />I don't think these passages are convincing to the moderationist. He can easily dismiss them.<br /><br />What we are after is a passage describing the fruit of the vine as non-alcoholic. I don't think we have any clear passages for yayin or oinos. The best we can come up with are these figure of speech for grapes. So?? It doesn't prove anything.<br /><br />I'll consider your point with respect to modifiers, but my suspicion is that it will not fly. The Hebrews had a word for juice, tirosh. It is doubtful that yayin means the same thing as tirosh.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-28437579798163306392009-08-12T20:43:31.724-07:002009-08-12T20:43:31.724-07:00Bro Kent,
I am enjoying this series on Alcohol. ...Bro Kent, <br /><br />I am enjoying this series on Alcohol. I am glad you are addressing this issue. Keep up the good work!<br /><br />When I am back on furlough maybe we can get together for a drink and discuss theology. Just kidding. :)Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-10383979000920804652009-08-12T18:03:20.973-07:002009-08-12T18:03:20.973-07:00Question:
Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lem...Question:<br />Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink<br /><br />Clearly the wine refered to here is alcoholic. How could the King of Kings throw back some booze knowing the Scriptural command for kings?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com