tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post9085539382363921419..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Children of Obedient Parents Turning Out for God--Certainty or Mere Possibility? Part 2Kent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-7727549478737721992011-02-13T07:17:00.676-08:002011-02-13T07:17:00.676-08:00Anonymous,
I have no idea what commenters here ha...Anonymous,<br /><br />I have no idea what commenters here have or have not done with their children; Pastor Brandenburg (and others who I know read this) are definitely qualified.<br /><br />In terms of the question of whether exegesis of Proverbs 22:6 should only be set forth and applied by those who have already raised children, rather than anyone who is part of the universal priesthood of believers (not that Anonymous was specifically stating this), what came to mind was the words of Pastor Roger Voegtlin, pastor of Fairhaven Baptist Church and college. When he preached the promise of Proverbs 22:6 and didn't have any kids yet, people said, "Ah, you can say that; wait until you have your own." When he had little children, naysayers said, "Wait until they are older; then you'll see." When they were grown up and all living for God, naysayers said, "In your day, decades ago, Proverbs 22:6 could be obeyed, but not now in our day; today the world is too wicked." So we had better just go with the grammatical-historical exegesis of the passage.<br /><br />I am not prepared at this point to say that nothing in Proverbs is a principle rather than a promise, although if we consider the dynamic of partial and complete fulfillment, the godly will all inherit the earth, etc. in the Millennium, even if they have trouble now. As Solomon's son was the head of the theocratic nation of Israel, I don't know why Proverbs 3:1-2 wasn't an actual promise to Solomon's son which was certainly true, rather than only a principle.<br /><br />Thanks all for the comments.Thomas Rosshttp://sites.google.com/site/thross7noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-64787227748140929692011-02-11T06:29:21.405-08:002011-02-11T06:29:21.405-08:00Brother Ross,
Going back and re-reading Ezekiel ...Brother Ross, <br /><br />Going back and re-reading Ezekiel 18, the point seems actually to be that people cannot blame their parents for their spiritual state and the consequences thereof. The point is <br /><br /><i>3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. <br /><br /> 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.</i>d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-18438253358931726582011-02-10T16:13:49.545-08:002011-02-10T16:13:49.545-08:00Mr. Ross,
I agree that that is the most awful bur...Mr. Ross,<br /><br />I agree that that is the most awful burden to bear, believing your child has been eternally lost. There may be some reading or commenting who bear such a devastating weight. But I am still of the belief that it is a heavy burden for a parent to be told that their failure to keep their end of a promise may cost them their child's soul, especially when it is worded in terms such as, "doing everything they should have done." After all Mr. Ross, from what I can tell, you are the only one of us in the discussion who has not yet failed to keep the promise of Proverbs 22:6. Unless, of course, Mr. Brandenburg would speak to this in his own defense.<br /><br />Anyway, I have enjoyed this. Though I remain unconvinced from Scripture, I hold that the discussion was profitable. I will leave you with a final question and a final thought, and the last word, as it should be, may be yours.<br /><br />Question: It appears to me that Proverbs does contain statements that are merely precepts, or general rules to which there may be exceptions. Chapter 3:1-2 would be one that comes to mind without much thought. Certainly it was not true for Abel, John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus Christ, and others through history. Other examples in Proverbs may include instances of the retribution principle. So I ask, why such a strong promise with zero exceptions in the midst of a book that contains precepts with exceptions?<br /><br />Finally, I thank you for your study and efforts to provoke thought on the part of your audience. I do not believe that any of us should hold it against you that you have taught on this subject having never reared children. Obviously some unmarried men have preached messages on how to have a good marriage. The wisdom of that can be debated another time. Nevertheless, I don't think you should be surprised that your audience, the members of it with children anyway, might be looking at you slightly sideways. It is only natural to wonder about a man who is making promises (I understand you are giving your own exegesis) offering something that he has not yet obtained. Should the Lord entrust you with children and grandchildren, it will be interesting to read your final edition of this article. --BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-28337919055587482032011-02-10T11:19:15.048-08:002011-02-10T11:19:15.048-08:00D4,
God does guarantee to those parents who suffi...D4,<br /><br />God does guarantee to those parents who sufficiently obey Biblical precepts of child rearing the salvation of their children.<br /><br />Bob,<br /><br />I think there is something to think about there with the grandkids. The requirement of "blameless" in 1 Tim 3 involves not having an obvious handle that people can point out, not perfect sinlessness, and sinlessness is not requisite in 1 Tim 3 or Titus 1 for childrearing. Perhaps that gap between sinlessness and "blameless" can account for grandchildren going bad, or perhaps not--I'm happy to believe that there is a promise to grandchildren as well, but at this point I'm not willing to commit to it, and there are certainly more steps required to the conclusion about grandkids than for children.<br /><br />Anonymous,<br /><br />It seems to me that the heavy yoke is the idea that you can do all you ought to do and your children will serve the devil and burn in hell fire forever, not that God makes a glorious promise to obedient parents.<br /><br />Thanks for the comments one and all.Thomas Rosshttp://sites.google.com/site/thross7noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-86506938659545168732011-02-10T09:41:37.106-08:002011-02-10T09:41:37.106-08:00Mr. Ross,
I think you missed my point about grand...Mr. Ross,<br /><br />I think you missed my point about grandchildren.<br /><br />You said, "...pastors are disqualified if their children go bad, no matter how old those children are..." Can the pastor's character be finally determined before it is seen how his grandchildren turn out? If the pastor's adult children do not rear godly children who know and follow Christ, then the adult children are disqualified for having an ungodly family. If the adult children are disqualified, then the pastor who reared those adult children is disqualified. If your grandchildren turn out bad, is it possible to claim that you reared your own children to practice the "promise" of Proverbs 22:6? If a 1st generation Christian truly does his part of the promise of Proverbs 22:6, then his 2nd generation son could not disprove that promise by giving him a rebellious grandson in the 3rd generation. To do so would mean the 1st generation parent did everything he could but his children still turned out bad in the all important matter of family for God. The 1st generation is disqualified by their failure to influence the actions of the 2nd generation as revealed in the 3rd generation. That's my question about grandchildren. --BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-49817687399641099982011-02-10T07:53:03.522-08:002011-02-10T07:53:03.522-08:00Greg / 1611,
I hear what you are saying about the...Greg / 1611,<br /><br />I hear what you are saying about the heavy yoke or burden that Mr. Ross' article has put you under.<br /><br />I think Don made a good point in the comments under Part One regarding Abraham. If someone were to ask us, "Is there an example of someone in the Bible who did not rear all of his children to know and to follow God, yet still received commendation from God for his parenting," we could answer them, "Yes, Abraham did not rear his firstborn son Ishmael to know God or to live for God, yet God gave Abraham the extraordinary commendation of his parenting as recorded in Genesis 18:19." Thoughts? --BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-44145789509988491832011-02-10T02:28:28.486-08:002011-02-10T02:28:28.486-08:00No you didn't say it, but I see no reason, fro...No you didn't say it, but I see no reason, from these articles, that you should object to saying it, or object to anyone saying it as a one sentence summary of the promise you see in Proverbs 22:6. <br /><br />Do you see any such reasons?d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-11671869015881807652011-02-09T19:32:18.263-08:002011-02-09T19:32:18.263-08:00D4,
In relation to your first comment, I didn'...D4,<br /><br />In relation to your first comment, I didn't see that sentence when I searched for it--is that one I said?<br /><br />I think the point of Ezekiel 18 is that a saved person (just person) can still beget an unregenerate child--think Josiah. Unless it can be PROVEN that Ezekiel 18 specifically means that the parent trained up a child in all the ways he was supposed to do--rather than affirming simply what would be true of the regenerate in general--there is no contradiction. Thanks for the comments.<br /><br />1611,<br /><br />Children CAN turn out right with bad parents--and even with unregenerate parents children can hear the gospel and be converted. There just is no promise, but parents who obey Proverbs 22:6 have a promise.Thomas Rosshttp://sites.google.com/site/thross7noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-13027055080321683842011-02-09T09:07:47.104-08:002011-02-09T09:07:47.104-08:00Interesting articles...I guess my question would b...Interesting articles...I guess my question would be should we assume Adam/Eve did something different with Abel that they didn't do with Cain? <br /><br />If I could voice a couple concerns. First, this puts quite a yoke/burden on a parent--we're talking eternal damnation. How many times have we all sinned in parenting? (disciplined in anger, lost temper) or just plain provoked them to anger. How many mess ups do I get (being a sinner still toting this flesh myself) before my children are lost with no hope? Second, does this in any way rob God of His glory which he'll share with no other (I Cor 1:29--That no flesh should glory in his presence). Won't we be able to sit back in the millenium and think-- glad I did that right so my kids are in heaven...they would somehow be indebted would they not?<br />Greg1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/06191521427687205866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-36381964809863775922011-02-08T11:06:03.133-08:002011-02-08T11:06:03.133-08:00Ezekiel 18-
5 But if a man be just, and do that w...<i>Ezekiel 18-<br /><br />5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right... <br /><br /> 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. <br /><br /> 10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things... <br /><br />13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live:</i><br /><br /><br />I don't think you can self-pronounce your exegesis sufficient until you deal with this passage.d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-74418398345982810252011-02-07T12:04:40.826-08:002011-02-07T12:04:40.826-08:00Certainly there is a flaw in the following sentenc...Certainly there is a flaw in the following sentence: <br /><br />The promise of Proverbs 22:6 indicates that a parent or parents, can, by maintaining consistent good works of biblical parenting, guarantee their children will accept God's free gift of salvation. <br /><br />I'll even reword it: <br /><br />God guaranteses to those parents who sufficiently obey biblical precepts of child rearing the salvation of their children.d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-78859931975232935002011-02-06T11:06:54.568-08:002011-02-06T11:06:54.568-08:00Dear Bob,
I think the point in 1 Tim 3 is that if...Dear Bob,<br /><br />I think the point in 1 Tim 3 is that if you have kids, they need to be obedient. I don't think that if a pastor in a country with serious persecution has his wife or children killed he becomes disqualified all of a sudden. <br /><br />I think that if parents train children rightly we can expect the godly seed to continue down generation after generation. In terms of the exegesis of 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1, I think the "faithful children" are the actual physical children of the parents, though.<br /><br />Thanks for the comment.Thomas Rosshttp://sites.google.com/site/thross7noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-60985781411870008902011-02-04T11:50:47.604-08:002011-02-04T11:50:47.604-08:00Thank you for part two. A couple quick ones if I ...Thank you for part two. A couple quick ones if I might:<br /><br />Question One: <br /><br />If you have no children to rear, are you qualified for spiritual leadership?<br /><br />Question Two:<br /><br />Could someone keep the promise of Proverbs 22:6 as you define and explain in your article and end up with grandchildren who do not know God or do not live for God? How would that happen?<br /><br />Thanks for the time,<br /><br />BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com