tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post6751118310896680712..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Ought We to Pray to the Person of the Holy Spirit? part 2Kent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-36105948171402288562013-06-20T08:55:17.651-07:002013-06-20T08:55:17.651-07:00Having thought about this for a good while, and di...Having thought about this for a good while, and discussed it with others, I have come to agree with John Owen on this matter, although, if he is in error, I am glad to have someone explain why this is the case and to switch my position back again.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-64026426137928035532013-04-24T20:12:34.598-07:002013-04-24T20:12:34.598-07:00George,
I'm glad to hear it.
Jesus answered ...George,<br /><br />I'm glad to hear it.<br /><br />Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23. All three Persons are in the believer. The Bible is very clear that the entire Trinity (which is, in any case, necessarily undivided in essence) dwells within the believer. In John 14:23 the Son, speaking concerning Himself and the Person of the Father, states, “we will come unto [the believer], and make our abode with him.” There is no reason to change statements such as “Christ liveth in me” (Galatians 2:20) into affirmations about the Holy Spirit living within believers (as He certainly does as well, Romans 8:9). In some texts (e. g., John 17:23, “I in them,” in the context of John 17—Christ alone, not the Father or the Holy Ghost, is the High Priest for the elect) switching the Son’s indwelling to that of the Spirit is impossible. KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-41623196658042728292013-04-24T15:00:03.910-07:002013-04-24T15:00:03.910-07:00KJV1611 said:
"I very much hope that you do ...KJV1611 said:<br /><br />"I very much hope that you do not really believe that the Holy Ghost is Christ in us, for if you do believe that the Person of the Son is the Person of the Holy Spirit, you would be a modalist idolator and not a Christian, for Christians believe in the Trinity"<br /><br />Of course as a Chrisitan I believe in the triune nature of the Godhead. The PERSON of Jesus Christ (1 of THREE) resides within believers by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is that Spirit (2 of THREE) which is given to all those who come by faith to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:38-39). The Holy Ghost is what gives each INDIVIDUAL Christian access to the Father (3 of THREE) through his Son.<br /><br />"I trust that what you wrote was simply a slip of the pen, and that you really believe that Christ in us is the second Person in believers, and the Holy Ghost in us is the third Person in believers, just as the Father also is in believers (John 14:21) while remaining the first Person and not being either the second or third Persons."<br /><br />Your theology is correct, but your understanding is not. The Father, Son and Spirit are not in us as you presume. It is by the Holy Ghost (John 7:37) that is in us (Acts 19:2, Romans 14:17, etc.) that puts us in Christ as "bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh", with the "circumcison made without hands" which is truly the "circumcision of Christ" (Colossians 2:11). It is the power of the Spirit, in the Holy Ghost (it was that image which was lost by Adam and Eve) that imparts unto every true believer eternal life when we repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is by the Spirit of God, imparted to each believer, in the Holy Ghost that gives us access to the Father.The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-33816915412122883022013-04-23T05:21:01.907-07:002013-04-23T05:21:01.907-07:00Dear Pastor Brandenburg,
Thank you ...Dear Pastor Brandenburg,<br /><br /> <br /> Thank you for taking the time to read Owen’s post and commenting. Certainly a benediction is not a direct prayer, but that fact does not prove that benedictions are not indirect prayers. Owen would not argue that the model is prayer to the Spirit—it is to the Father through the Son by the Spirit—but that Matthew 6 is the model does not prove that all deviations from the model are unlawful in every situation. There are many prayers in the Psalter—which are certainly lawful for us to pray—that do not follow the pattern of Matthew 6, and many inspired prayers recorded in the NT that do not follow the pattern of Matthew 6. While prayer to the Person of the Son is not the model in Matthew 6, it is clearly lawful, as Stephen prayed to Christ in Acts 7 without sinning and all the saints are said to pray to Christ in 1 Cor 1:2. If Paul can properly derive doctrine from “seed” versus “seeds” in Galatians, then whatever legitimate implications are present in the benediction texts do actually have doctrinal significance. If there is a legitimate doctrinal implication about the lawfulness of invocation of the Spirit from benediction texts, the model in Matthew 6 is not changed, nor is it by any means contradicted—Owen would entirely agree with the idea that Matthew 6 is the model—it would simply prove that prayer to the Spirit is lawful, while prayer to the Father is still the model.<br /><br /> <br /><br /> Owen’s case that benedictions are forms of indirect invocation looks quite strong to me; the example in the post from 1 Kings, for example, seems quite clear—Solomon “blessed” the people by invoking God and praying to Him for a blessing. In addition to the texts referenced by Owen, the category of passages I mentioned in my previous comment, those like 2 Sam 16:16 and Romans 11:1, certainly seem to me to provide further support. I don’t have a good case against Owen’s argument, and I don’t think it is sufficient to invoke the model of Matthew 6 unless we can prove that Matthew 6 is the ONLY lawful way that we can pray at any time, which will be very difficult to prove.<br /><br /> <br /><br />George,<br /><br /> <br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to comment.<br /><br /> <br /><br />It is easier to simply say that Owen is guilty of “intellectual bloating” than to prove that it is so.<br /><br /> <br /><br />I very much hope that you do not really believe that the Holy Ghost is Christ in us, for if you do believe that the Person of the Son is the Person of the Holy Spirit, you would be a modalist idolator and not a Christian, for Christians believe in the Trinity. I trust that what you wrote was simply a slip of the pen, and that you really believe that Christ in us is the second Person in believers, and the Holy Ghost in us is the third Person in believers, just as the Father also is in believers (John 14:21) while remaining the first Person and not being either the second or third Persons.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-2292849183730852552013-04-20T05:14:48.145-07:002013-04-20T05:14:48.145-07:00The work of the Spirit is to make known the truth ...The work of the Spirit is to make known the truth and character of the Father and Son, through the words of God, by the Holy Ghost which abideth in us. It is the Holy Ghost, Christ in us, that gives us access to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ while he ministers and upholds the word of his power.<br /><br />What Owens wrote is a bunch of intellectual bloating and using "proof-texting" to support a position that is not tenable by the whole of scripture. The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-48125878893573536192013-04-19T23:20:07.921-07:002013-04-19T23:20:07.921-07:00Hi Thomas.
All this proves, as I read it, is that...Hi Thomas.<br /><br />All this proves, as I read it, is that we look to the three Persons of the Trinity for the blessing on our lives. Those texts do not read as instructing to address prayer to the Holy Spirit, such as, "Sweet Holy Spirit...." That's taking it too far. Jesus taught to address the prayers to the Father, and we must interpret the benediction texts, passages that don't read like a prayer, neither are called prayer, in light of the actual teaching on prayer. If you had not offered Owen's argument, it would not have occurred to me, because it would clash with what Jesus taught.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-31410542020910808832013-04-19T21:41:03.966-07:002013-04-19T21:41:03.966-07:00Texts of this sort might also be related to Owen&#...Texts of this sort might also be related to Owen's argument--I ran across this today. In 2 Samuel 16:16, the Hebrew yehi hamelek, "Let live the king," is not directly a prayer, but the KJV renders it as "God save the king" because God is the one who would allow the king to live, so an implicit invocation of God is involved in the statement. Something similar is found in the Greek me genoito and its Hebrew equivalent, the "Let it never be" of Romans 11:1 and other texts; "Let it never be" means "God forbid," for God is the one who will not allow it to be; compare my study of "God forbid" as an accurate translation at http://faithsaves.net/bibliology/ .<br />KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-80579017051613438302013-04-19T07:59:29.838-07:002013-04-19T07:59:29.838-07:00Part 1 should be read also; no more parts are com...Part 1 should be read also; no more parts are coming, I think.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.com