tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post4031487322037126846..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Is There Any Spiritual Authority Outside of a Church and Other than the Lord Jesus Christ?Kent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-84411953789204929912015-01-11T21:27:45.474-08:002015-01-11T21:27:45.474-08:00Farmer,
When it says elder or bishop, it does not...Farmer,<br /><br />When it says elder or bishop, it does not mean pastor. A pastor can be a single man (Jeremiah 17:16 cf. 16:2) and since Jeremiah was told not to marry and also called himself a pastor, your conclusions do not stand the test of scriptural truth based on terms defined clearly by the scriptures.<br /><br />Also, if you look at the lists of gifts found in Ephesians 4 and compare them to 1 Corinthians 12, you will find pastor and evangelist in only one list. The list of Ephesians 4 identifies the "work of the ministry" while the list in 1 Corinthians 12 identifies those gifts "set in the church".<br /><br />Though the word in Greek for shepherd is the same for pastor, every time the word shepherd is used in the NT it is always in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, except in one place. That is why the Holy King James Bible is so precise, that it used pastor in Ephesians 4 so that there would be no confusion as to who the "shepherd of the sheep" is and it is NOT the "pastor". The Holy King James Bible did the same thing in the OT with the Hebrew. (See the same precision with Greek word pascha in Acts 12 that is translated as Easter).<br /><br />The church should be scripturally organized as a presbytery of elders with a single "presiding elder" being the bishop of the assembly. As the officer of that office (his bishopric- Acts 1) he both oversees the administration and ministration of that assembly. <br /><br />The pastor is supposed to "pasture" by feeding the flock of God “with knowledge and understanding” (Jeremiah 3:15) of the word of God. It is possible that a one who is a bishop could also pastor, since he is certainly told to "do the work of an evangelist" and be "apt to teach". But, it is not true that a pastor is always a bishop. The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-21571078998676614972015-01-10T19:56:39.860-08:002015-01-10T19:56:39.860-08:00George, you cannot cite 1 Peter 5:1-2 to show sepa...George, you cannot cite 1 Peter 5:1-2 to show separate church offices since it definitively proves pastor, bishop, and elder are a single office. I believe it is the only passage where all three titles are used.<br /><br />Peter says "the elders which are among you I exort...feed (pastor[ing], ποιμαίνω) the flock...taking the oversight (bishop[ing], ἐπισκοπέω). <br /><br />He is repeating the instruction, almost word for word, that Jesus gave him in the beach. John 21:16 ...He saith unto him, "Feed (pastor, ποιμαίνω) my sheep. Peter in turn tells those elders to bishop and pastor the flock of God.<br /><br />You can call him a bishop, pastor or elder, or just call him by name since the apostles seemed to eschew titles, but he is all the same man.Farmer Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09637851494862726991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-67997111272079959932015-01-10T08:13:15.516-08:002015-01-10T08:13:15.516-08:00If the church was organized biblically in a "...If the church was organized biblically in a "Presbyterian form (1 Timothy 4)" of elders (Titus 1) and then one of those elders is the "presiding bishop" of that church, you would have a biblical avenue of biblical rule where each "member in particular" are all "subject to one another" (1 Peter 5:1-5) and the church is served by the bishop who upholds the biblical principles, truths established by all members and overseen by the presbytery and carried out by the bishop.<br /><br />The pastor has taken rule and that has no biblical basis except to usurp the authority of the elders and bishop.The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-79479510742634813802015-01-09T13:34:36.988-08:002015-01-09T13:34:36.988-08:00Hi Farmer Brown,
The people I'm trying to pry...Hi Farmer Brown,<br /><br />The people I'm trying to pry away are those in churches where you can't worship God. Many of them only claim to be converted, but are not, so in a sense, although they are members of those churches, or just attend, they aren't even part of the church spiritually. I ask, "Can you worship God in your church?" If not, they should move somewhere else. I think that Corinth and Ephesus, etc. are good examples of someone on the outside intervening, by the way. I never included that. The push back would be, they were apostles, usually. But the apostles set an example. The truth is authority over a church, so when a church isn't obeying the truth, intervention is necessary.<br /><br />I believe that any unrepentant disobedience that you know, and I say know, that isn't being confronted, is grounds for confrontation.<br /><br />The better thing is for churches to change, which is why you talk to the pastors first, which we do, have done.<br /><br />I'm primarily here though, talking about intervening, period---intervening with a pastor, with pastoral leadership, and then the men, to deal with their pastor, and most of the time it stops there. You have no other grounds. I would suggest we do this with the churches we know. <br /><br />A lot more can be said here, but I'll leave it at this.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-43770511705559660772015-01-09T08:29:17.750-08:002015-01-09T08:29:17.750-08:00This is troubling. The Jack Hyles situation was i...This is troubling. The Jack Hyles situation was in a certain class because of the loyalty he fostered (and demanded) in those that were associated with him. This is the reason people thousands of miles away who had not been to Hammond in a decade were wearing "I'm with Jack" buttons to church in the 1980s. His was a public "ministry", like Jim Baker or Bob Jones University.<br /><br />When do you make the decision that you have the authority to step into another church? Whom are you trying to pry away? Are these real candlesticks?<br /><br />In Corinth there was all manner of rot, but Paul did not tell people to leave or to pry members from that assembly. What of the churches in Revelations two and three? Would you feel justified in visiting a Corinthian church member and telling them to leave? What about Thyatira and Loadicea? Would it be acceptable to tell those people to leave?<br /><br />If Jesus who was walking among them wanted people to leave, couldn't he have said that? These churches were is dire straits, but the Lord wanted to see them strengthened. Would you be accomplishing God's purpose if you stripped away their members?<br /><br />Not that there is never a time to leave if you are a member. We still have to withdraw ourselves from those walking disorderly, as we are commanded, even if it is a leader. However, what is you example for stepping into another churches matters? When do you have the authority to "tell him, them, what to do."?Farmer Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09637851494862726991noreply@blogger.com