tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post3234748291692383946..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Observations about Church Discipline from 1 Corinthians 5Kent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-78154031494461485412011-04-05T08:50:39.724-07:002011-04-05T08:50:39.724-07:00Titus,
I agree.
Don,
If I had an axe to grind w...Titus,<br /><br />I agree.<br /><br />Don,<br /><br />If I had an axe to grind with BWM, I would have ground it years ago. This is something I believe needs to be exposed. Fundamentalism has had no problem exposing Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham, rightfully so. Some fundamentalists also expose John MacArthur and John Piper, rightfully so. I'm one of those, and you've never questioned my doing so---for instance, the Resolved Conference. However, here is an example of an unresolved violation of scripture, a typical situation in fundamentalists, and a fundamentalist judges it to be an axe to grind. Why judge it that way? Why not judge it like you would fundamentalists who expose Jerry Falwell?<br /><br />We would not discipline someone who was not causing division. I believe we would take someone who was not disciplined according to God's Word, but we would thoroughly check it out with the church first and also completely explain why we would take them in. Churches that just cast out members, like Diotrephes, should not be respected for that. I reject and resent any implication that this is what we did. We did not.<br /><br />You say that you were not there so you cannot know what happened. Paul was not there in Corinth, so could he not know what happened? Why is it we can believe reports about Jerry Falwell when we are not there, but we can't believe this?<br /><br />And Don, if one of my best friends did what was done to our church to you and your church, I would support you and your church. I would confront the friend and expect repentance. I've got a track record too of doing this kind of thing. I guarantee that I would. However, my good friends wouldn't do this.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-20521199042200057342011-04-05T08:18:13.052-07:002011-04-05T08:18:13.052-07:00Hi Kent, no, I wouldn't discipline someone jus...Hi Kent, no, I wouldn't discipline someone just for believing as you believe, only if he was divisive about it.<br /><br />However, I was trying to paint a scenario of an unjust church discipline situation, which I think my scenario would be. I am not making a comment about the specific situation you are talking about since I don't know and can't know all the details.<br /><br />My point was, if someone was unjustly disciplined from a church, would you accept him as a member in spite of that cloud of unjust discipline hanging over him?<br /><br />I am not saying that is the case here, but simply pointing out that it isn't simply a matter of taking one church's word for it. I think you are mistaken in this article to suggest that your report should be believed simply because you say so.<br /><br />I also think that you aren't doing right by bringing up this particular issue at this time. It seems you have more of an axe to grind with BWM than you have of explaining why you left fundamentalism.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-55070596347088705672011-04-05T06:16:20.742-07:002011-04-05T06:16:20.742-07:00Pastor Bloggerburg,
I was just going to mention D...Pastor Bloggerburg,<br /><br />I was just going to mention Don's example as being in the same vein: find an outlandish hypothetical example that supposedly overturns the rule, and use that as an exception clause.<br /><br />To address your example Don, I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.<br /><br />In Pastor Bloggenburg's case with the man in his church, you had a man who was both violating Scripture, AND refusing the church's authority to deal with his matter (i.e. being divisive).<br /><br />In the case you've proposed, the man in question would be doing neither. You're already set up the question such that the man is not being divisive. And it would be absolutely, unfathomably ludicrous to think that believing in the Scriptural promise of preservation is somehow "unscriptural" (one would think this would be readily apparent, "by definition.")<br /><br />As such, the circumstances that were found in the case of Bethel Baptist are not found in your hypothetical. The question is not relevant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-68655788626609192062011-04-04T22:11:06.071-07:002011-04-04T22:11:06.071-07:00D4,
Good observation.
Titus,
I do believe that ...D4,<br /><br />Good observation.<br /><br />Titus,<br /><br />I do believe that finding some exceptional situation as the way out is par for the course. When California tried to pass a education voucher in the state, the opposition said it would result in "witch schools" taking the vouchers. Or it could be that situation where we have a godly, non-divisive man disciplined out of a church for believing there is one Bible, disciplined out of a multiple version church, who comes to join our church.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-53862630199537882602011-04-04T22:04:51.713-07:002011-04-04T22:04:51.713-07:00Don,
In order to answer your hypothetical questio...Don,<br /><br />In order to answer your hypothetical question, Don, would you discipline someone out for believing as we do on the versions, who has not caused division in your church? I don't really desire to deal with situations that have no reality in the actual world.<br /><br />I can tell you this though, Don, if you disciplined someone out of your church, and he came to me, you would get a phone call, and it is very highly unlikely that we would take him into our church. That's not a sense I've gotten from you in this discussion. I sense you support the church that took in our disciplined member---I base that on your "snarky" comment over at your blog.<br /><br />Your hypothetical is not anything at all, even a scintilla of anything what happened here. It is nothing more than a smokecloud, a red herring in this, very much like our two commenters to part five of the blog.<br /><br />Don, I would support your discipline. If you had my situation, I would support your church. I would take whatever "political" loss there would be because Jesus loves the church. <br /><br />Would you discipline someone for believing there is one Hebrew and Greek text for Scripture, based upon the doctrine of perfect preservation?Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-91540569871413704972011-04-04T21:18:25.425-07:002011-04-04T21:18:25.425-07:00Well, Kent, let me propose a scenario for you to a...Well, Kent, let me propose a scenario for you to aid my understanding of what you are saying. Suppose I am pastoring in your area and we have a guy in our church who we discipline. We discipline him out because we discover he believes like you believe, in "one text of Scripture, which English translation is only the King James Version", but we don't hold that view. The guy hasn't been divisive about it, but we just don't like him believing that so we discipline him out.<br /><br />This guy now is looking for a church to attend. He hears about you and comes to your church. He finds that he believes exactly the same as you do and wants to join your church. He is still under discipline from our church, we haven't been able to get him to repent and he won't see things our way.<br /><br />What do you do?<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jeremiah 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-22241275523717702062011-04-04T06:59:53.315-07:002011-04-04T06:59:53.315-07:00(from previous) And so we see it with the matter o...(from previous) And so we see it with the matter of church discipline. They all say they're for it. Except that there always seems to be a reason why it shouldn't have been done, in every particular case. In the discussion on the previous thread, this was had by means of questioning the matter of this lazy man's refusal to get a job.<br /><br />It was "rude" and "arrogant" to offer him a job at the church (no it wasn't). <br /><br />The Bible never says that *men* have to be the ones bringing home the bacon (well, yes it does actually).<br /><br />Proverbs 31 says a woman can support a household (no it doesn't, actually). <br /><br />He wasn't lazy - he was taking care of the kids (not really his job anywise, Titus 2:4-5).<br /><br />And so on. Essentially, rather than just accept what the Bible plainly teaches, and accepting the authority and the legitimacy of Bethel Baptist Church's disciplining of this man for violating the Scripture, the Sharper Iron crowd (and look folks, we know that's who a lot of you are) comes on here trying to find every possible nitpicking exception to get around the simple fact of the rule of Scripture.<br /><br />I find this to be a very sad thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-44627195946128745082011-04-04T06:59:27.279-07:002011-04-04T06:59:27.279-07:00Thank you for the post, Pastor Brandenburger,
Ano...Thank you for the post, Pastor Brandenburger,<br /><br />Another thing to consider is that by refusing to give credibility to another church's disciplining of a member, and accepting him in (and subsequently giving him a positive mandate, under the authority of that church, to go out and train as a missionary), the members of the receiving church are setting themselves up for destruction because they are aiding and abetting the defilement of their own church (I Cor. 3:17). Taking in another church's problem case - one who was unrepentant, one who positively refused biblical correction on what should be a pretty obvious case of wrongdoing - and giving this person kudos, in essence, is to basically introduce leaven into your own church. After all, biblically speaking, there doesn't seem to necessarily be a really good reason to think this man is even saved (Titus 3:10-11), and BBC would in fact even seem to be commanded to treat him as a heathen man and a publican (Matt. 18:17). Yet, this is what that other church did. <br /><br />I won't address the mission board in this aspect of the matter, since the mission board has no real biblical authority, and therefore no real legitimacy, anywise. The mission board is a "political vacuum," so to speak. <br /><br />So the question I think is interesting is "Why were there so many folks coming on with their knickers in a knot about your church disciplining an obviously erring member who positively refused to get right, and your efforts to maintain fellowship with another church that was acting in a foolish and undiscerning manner?"<br /><br />That's an interesting question, one that I've been mulling since the discussion really started to get heated on the last thread a few days ago.<br /><br />Frankly, I think it comes down to the fact that we have a number of people coming on here who basically seek to try to use "exceptions" to get around the rule. <br /><br />It's like with discussions that have been had on this very blog before, about honouring the Lord with our dress, about how we should wear our best when we come to worship, in contradiction to the dumbed-down, "come as you are" approach being adopted by many evangelical, and even fundamental churches. <br /><br />You know how it goes. There's always got to be one or two guys who think they've got it all figured out and can "refute" the idea of dressing to honour the Lord by asking questions like "what if all you have to wear to church are overalls?" or somesuch. <br /><br />The answer? Then you wear your best overalls, because what matters is your heart attitude of giving God your best. If your "good overalls" are what you have, then you wear them. I come from a part of the country where people really do have such a thing as their "good overalls," btw. <br /><br />But we have folks who actually, for whatever reason, think that asking that type of question is some sort of good argument. In other words, they're trying to find some legalistic little exception to get around the rule.<br /><br />Sort of like how the Pharisees would let adult children declare their goods "Corban" - dedicated to the temple, even though they could continue to use and enjoy them in practice - so as to get around the biblical mandate to honour their parents, in this case, by taking care of them in their old age (Mark 7:11; I Tim. 5:4,8)<br /><br />In other words - the "exception clause people" are basically acting like Pharisees. Sorry, but they are. (more)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-60586234579675334252011-04-04T05:48:38.679-07:002011-04-04T05:48:38.679-07:00One of the interesting things to me is the weird d...One of the interesting things to me is the weird dichotomy that seems to be present in some universal church believers (of which I am one). If we want to be all "unity, unity, unity," how can we with any legitimacy ignore or scoff at another local body's discipline? A thorough investigation and communication between the two churches about the case just seems mandatory.d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.com