tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post1142554714968400054..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Let's Think about Romans 6:23 in Its Context for a "Gospel Presentation"Kent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-53983931914530949912016-06-21T06:17:23.021-07:002016-06-21T06:17:23.021-07:00When we speak of the doctrine of Federal Headship,...When we speak of the doctrine of Federal Headship, the common term is Lordship. However, this term is usually understood to refer to the Lordship of Christ in that He is God. As the title Lord is applied to Jesus the Christ, it is used in relationship to His theanthropicity (the union of God and man through the incarnation).<br /><br />In the context of the Christ-life of Romans chapter six through eight, this is synergistic and not monergistic. This is the meaning of the Greek word translated "fellowship" in the KJB. Understanding this is actually an answer to the false teachings of both Calvinism in Calvin's progressive justification (chapter 14 of his Institutes) as opposed to progressive sanctification and Keswick's and Wesley's second blessing theology.Lance Ketchumhttp://www.disciplemakerministries.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-57330746218794111792016-06-21T06:16:55.370-07:002016-06-21T06:16:55.370-07:00These two Federal Headships are the subject matter...These two Federal Headships are the subject matter of the perfectionism teaching (positional, progressive, and permanent sanctification/perfection) of the Apostle Paul that begins in Romans 5:1 transitioning from the doctrines of the propitiation of God and the justification of believers and going through Romans chapter 8. The subject matter then is picked up again in Romans chapter 12 and goes through the end of the epistle. <br /> The first aspect of the believer’s perfection/sanctification “in Christ” is positional. This means that in the Federal Headship of Christ through the New Birth into the New Creation every “born again” believer has such an intricate and intimate union with Christ that everything that has already happened to Christ actually has happened to the believer positionally. Under the Federal Headship of the first Adam through procreation, all of us are sinners by nature, condemned, and hopelessly spiritually dead in trespasses and sin. Under the new Federal Headship of the last Adam, Christ Jesus, all believers through the New Creation have positionally been crucified with Him, died with Him, buried with Him, are resurrected/glorified with Him, and are already seated with Him at the right hand of the Father.<br /><br />“1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance {perfect confidence} of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete {pleroo; another Greek word referring to a full or finished work} in him {in that you have been positionally immersed into the New Creation and the “body of Christ” by the baptism with the Holy Spirit}, which is the head {new Federal Headship of the last Adam} of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism {Spirit baptism; I Cor. 12:13}, wherein {in that Spirit baptism into the New Creation “in Christ”} also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened {positionally resurrected and glorified} together with him, having forgiven {gratuitously pardoned} you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it {vicariously; I Peter 2:24 & 3:18} to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it” (Colossians 2:1-15).<br /><br />Lance Ketchumhttp://www.disciplemakerministries.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-24482642997565617162016-06-21T06:15:28.787-07:002016-06-21T06:15:28.787-07:00The issue before us in Romans 6:1-23 has to do wit...The issue before us in Romans 6:1-23 has to do with what is known as Federal Headship. In the text, we have two different Federal Headships before us. <br /><br />1. The Federal Headship of the first Adam and the condemnation of all those that descend from that Federal Headship and the complete corruption of the life of every individual that continues to live under that Federal Headship, including the redeemed.<br />2. The new Federal Headship of Jesus Christ, the “last Adam,” and the salvation of all those that descend from that new Federal Headship “in Christ” “by grace through faith.” The baptism with the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit creates a new union under the new Federal Headship of Christ. This union is eternal and is positionally complete “in Christ.” Practically, this new union makes the production of God-kind righteousness possible through the filling of the Spirit or “the unity of the Spirit” as the saved believer completely yields his will to the indwelling Spirit of God.Lance Ketchumhttp://www.disciplemakerministries.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-71506669066242829052016-06-19T18:11:52.151-07:002016-06-19T18:11:52.151-07:00Thanks Thomas.
I guess it reads like a dumb ques...Thanks Thomas. <br /><br />I guess it reads like a dumb question - i wanted to run my expression by you because you initially noticed the problem in what was being said. I think I'm just rather stunned to see someone claiming that the only class of people to whom Romans 6:23 applies are those who don't at this point or ever again have to be concerned about spiritual death. It seems way off. (I agree with Kent that it doesn't tell HOW to be saved - just is a link in the chain of proof that salvation is desirable)<br /><br />StephenSCHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499180268365476522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-50955344035573147252016-06-19T17:57:19.559-07:002016-06-19T17:57:19.559-07:00May I try one more time to clarify this important ...May I try one more time to clarify this important matter. First of all, KJB1611, how can you say that sin doesn't pay wages of death when Rom. 6:23, clearly written to believers, says that it does. May I encourage you to read the verse again in its context. True, eternal life is the present possession of all believers, but remember that someone can be dead and alive at the same time, as Paul declares in I Tim. One of the four axioms of death is that one can be alive physically and dead spiritually, regardless of their relationship to God.<br /><br />On that point, we must be clear as to what death is, because we all learned it in Bible college, seminary or sitting in church. Death is separation. Physical death is separation of the soul and spirit from the body which everyone will experience unless raputred first.<br /><br />Spiritual death is separation from God in two ways. For the unbeliever, it is separation from God in relationship. For the believer, it is separation from God in fellowship.<br /><br />Again, sin pays wages to whoever sins, regardless of one's spiritual condition. Wages are the consequences one reaps for one's actions. One cannot argue that sin pays wages of spiritual death only to the lost, but stops paying wages of spiritual death once we're saved. You may want to review Gal. 6:7-8, where Paul declares in another way that choices have consequences. If we sow to our sinful nature, we reap corruption. What is corruption but a metaphor for death, as Paul notes in I Cor. 15.<br /><br />Please keep in mind that when a believer sins, he erects a wall of separation in fellowship with God. Sin is the barrier. That separation--in fellowship only--is spiritual death...spiritual separation. Death is separation. Separation is death.<br /><br />Sin is divided into three categories: 1. Sin Guilt/condemnation, which results in physical death. cf. Rom. 5:12. 2. The Sin Nature, which results in spiritual death. Rom. 6:23, and others. 3. The Sinful acts, which results in the Second Death. cf. Rev. 20. When Adam sinned, he potentially received all three. Spiritual death the moment he sinned, physical death when he died, and he would have reaped the Second Death had he not accepted God's sacrifice.<br /><br />When Christ died on the cross, He died for all three aspects of sin. Now, if a believer still has a sin nature, that sin nature, emphasized all through Rom. 6, especially v. 1-14, noted by the articular use of sin, that sinful nature still pays wages of loss of fellowship for us. That's separation between us and God. That's spiritual death.<br /><br />Well, I've rattled on long enough. I'm sure there are bigger fish to fry on Kent's blog than this one, but I at least wanted to take one more stab at trying to make sense of it all.<br /><br />Blessings to each of you.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17347398366709333912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-82244672267068894892016-06-18T15:50:40.618-07:002016-06-18T15:50:40.618-07:00Dear Stephen,
Yes, no believer will get spiritual...Dear Stephen,<br /><br />Yes, no believer will get spiritual death as the wages of his sin. Christ took that in his place, and he gets the gift, eternal life, Hallelujah!KJB1611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-78137873120939145352016-06-18T13:51:13.678-07:002016-06-18T13:51:13.678-07:00Kent and Thomas - Is it safe to say that those who...Kent and Thomas - Is it safe to say that those who are regenerate do not need to be concerned about sin killing them? Does Romans 6:23 imply this? I apologize if it seems like i'm just reiterating you point but I think you are teaching truth and want to understand it more fully. When Gary wrote, " It is addressed to Christians about Christians, not to unsaved about how to be saved." it confused me. Why?<br /><br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />StephenSCHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499180268365476522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-13991731091289298072016-06-18T13:08:39.713-07:002016-06-18T13:08:39.713-07:00Thomas,
I think it is true, what you are saying. ...Thomas,<br /><br />I think it is true, what you are saying. Sin, brought to completion, brings forth death. In other words, sin might fall short of that completion, and not bring forth death, because of the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. However, one could also argue that physical death finishes everyone in that kind of axiomatic way, and thanatos is used for physical death as well. It doesn't say anything about life, zoe, though. Where the Bible does say something about it, it says that one doesn't go back to spiritual death once he's received spiritual life.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-43960701292000521792016-06-18T13:01:20.438-07:002016-06-18T13:01:20.438-07:00Dear Pastor Brandenburg,
Can we not also say that...Dear Pastor Brandenburg,<br /><br />Can we not also say that sin does not "finish" the believer, only the unbeliever, in James 1:15, because the believer puts sin to death, not the other way around, Romans 8:13-14?KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-3287531492855187192016-06-18T12:56:43.254-07:002016-06-18T12:56:43.254-07:00Gary,
I believe Romans 6:23 is most often misused...Gary,<br /><br />I believe Romans 6:23 is most often misused in evangelism, which is why I wrote the post. I'm not saying, however, that it can't be used, because I believe that the argument is from the end of the one a slave to sin is death.<br /><br />Putting that aside for a moment, because it isn't my purpose to argue for using Romans 6:23 in evangelism, I want to speak to this one idea that Romans 6 says that believers face the wages of sin. We have to see Romans 6 in the context of the rest of scripture on this. God's Word won't contradict itself.<br /><br />Ephesians 2:5, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ." "Hath quickened," aorist tense, completed action. If it is completed action, then believers have no prospect of death anymore.<br /><br />Even clearer is Jesus in John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."<br />"Is passed from death unto life." Perfect tense, metabaino, action completed in the past, ongoing results. These are the same words, thanatos, death, and zoe, life, as in Romans 6:23. When someone believes in Jesus Christ, he can't go back to spiritual death again. He is eternally alive spiritually.<br /><br />I've not heard what you are teaching before. If I were to go to any place to defend it, except that I don't think this passage does defend it, it would be James 1:15, "sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." I don't believe the point in James 1:15 is about believers or unbelievers, just that all sin ever produces is death. 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 John 5:16 say that they produce physical death for a believer.<br /><br />Once a believer has spiritual life, he can't go back to spiritual death. That is permanent. I could argue that even further than what I did above.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-40161842927668553182016-06-18T12:10:26.118-07:002016-06-18T12:10:26.118-07:00Kent and all,
I am rather surprised to hear your ...Kent and all,<br /><br />I am rather surprised to hear your perspective on the spiritual death of Rom. 6:23. I was taught in both Bible college and seminary (both Fundamental Baptist) that believers can and do experience spiritual separation from God in fellowship whenever we sin. It is the standard view. Otherwise, one would have to argue that spiritual death as a result for sin pertains to unbelievers but somehow stops being a wage for believers.<br /><br />I am asked to a clear verse to prove my position. How about Rom. 6:23! When we as believers sin, we return--in a sense--to conditions we had before being saved. Let me illustrate:<br />According to James 4:1ff, when we as Christians become world-lovers, we become again God's enemies...a pre-conversion, pre-reconciliation condition. We're still saved but treated as God's enemy because of the hostility we have created with our friendship with His enemy-the world.<br /><br />In a similar way, when we as Christians sin, we experience the condition of spiritual separation from God in fellowship. Rom. 6:23 has nothing to do with the second death. It is exclusively pertaining to the state/condition of our lack of progress in sanctification.<br /><br />Again, those of you who are arguing for using 6:23 for evangelism are obliterating the context of the verse and the purpose for which Paul wrote it. It is addressed to Christians about Christians, not to unsaved about how to be saved.<br /><br />Hopefully, this clarifies my viewpoint.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17347398366709333912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-12004256482200473752016-06-16T19:34:04.354-07:002016-06-16T19:34:04.354-07:00Hi,
That's why I asked if there was technical...Hi,<br /><br />That's why I asked if there was technical language. I recognize Keswick unbiblical teaching, but I don't recognize the technical language of Keswick like Billy brought into his comment.<br /><br />I actually don't imagine Lance being Keswick, so it would really, really surprise me. I've never met him in person, but I read his gospel tract and it is very, very <b>not</b> Keswick. But when I asked for technical language, I didn't find out until Billy mentioned some. Without knowing that technical language, I stand by the statement I've made about what he wrote.<br /><br />I'll await finding out what he means by Christ-life. That doesn't stick out to me, because I'm assuming I have the life of Christ by faith, which is eternal life. That's how I read it.<br /><br />I skimmed the Thomas article and it still seems different than what Lance wrote. He didn't say Christ was living the life. Maybe he means that, but I see surrender to the Holy Spirit in there, which is not let go and let God. Again, I'll await.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-43945180826735471782016-06-16T18:47:49.535-07:002016-06-16T18:47:49.535-07:00Here is a study of the Keswick view of Galatians 2...Here is a study of the Keswick view of Galatians 2:20 and Colossians 3:4:<br /><br />http://faithsaves.net/galatians-220/KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-49240033165519340482016-06-16T18:36:36.865-07:002016-06-16T18:36:36.865-07:00Lance,
I have only ever heard pro-Keswick leaning ...Lance,<br />I have only ever heard pro-Keswick leaning speakers use the term "Christ-life." I believe that what they mean by the phrase is that Jesus Christ lives the Christian's life for him. The Christian is therefore passive, that is, non-active in the process of sanctification. If and when the "Christ-life" takes place in a believer's life then who is to blame for his subsequent sins?Bill Hardeckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15552819877860565186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-28049213536554204892016-06-16T18:11:09.580-07:002016-06-16T18:11:09.580-07:00Thomas,
You must be implying that he is implying ...Thomas,<br /><br />You must be implying that he is implying that death is loss of fellowship for the believer. I guess I would need a little more explanation from him to make that conclusion. The eternal life is the Christ life produced in a believer, abandoned by the unbeliever, left to the wages of sin. That's the most generous view of what he said, but it's possible that he is saying what you are saying, I would agree. I'll await that.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-22670842016502968262016-06-16T18:04:44.020-07:002016-06-16T18:04:44.020-07:00Dear Pastor Brandenburg,
Lance said:
the "...Dear Pastor Brandenburg,<br /><br />Lance said:<br /><br /> the "wages of sin is death" to the Christ-life being produced in the believers life (Romans 6:11-13).<br /><br />But the death is spiritual, eternal death in the lake of fire. The Christian does not in any way experience the "death" of 6:23, except for physical death.<br /><br />Thanks.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-46798458794683693492016-06-16T17:24:03.371-07:002016-06-16T17:24:03.371-07:00Thomas,
What about what Lance wrote reads like he...Thomas,<br /><br />What about what Lance wrote reads like he believes that "death" is a spiritual death of the believer, i.e., separation from God? I read that in Gary for sure, but I tried to see it in Lance's comment (after reading your comment), but I didn't see it.<br /><br />I'm with you that that "death" is not some kind of death for a believer. I didn't read that in Lance though, unless I was missing something in technical language that you could read, because of your reading.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-66229637783600618162016-06-16T17:19:49.823-07:002016-06-16T17:19:49.823-07:00Dear Gary and Lance,
Could you please give me the...Dear Gary and Lance,<br /><br />Could you please give me the clear, unambiguous text that says that believers--saved people--suffer spiritual death whenever they sin? I can give you ones that say that lost people are in a state of spiritual death. Where are your texts?<br /><br />Thanks.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-69844737848634831682016-06-16T17:06:44.538-07:002016-06-16T17:06:44.538-07:00Hi Gary,
I agree that Romans 6 is written for bel...Hi Gary,<br /><br />I agree that Romans 6 is written for believers for sanctification. It's a major point of my post, albeit not the main point. However, I see v. 23 different than what you are saying. I can't explain "death" as a "break from fellowship with God" there, even for believers. The unbeliever, the slave to sin, is the one who suffers the wages of sin.<br /><br />V. 23 is axiomatic, and it functions as the summation of the entire argument. If a person is a slave to sin, it works to death, and I believe it is eternal death as opposed to everlasting life, not loss of fellowship. Somebody gets just what he deserved in the end. I don't want to be on the slave to sin end of the scenario. I want to be in the gift of God, eternal life, end.<br /><br />For everything that God does in justification, I have to cooperate with what God is doing, and I can because of His gift.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-81997179608208471342016-06-16T16:13:04.107-07:002016-06-16T16:13:04.107-07:00Sorry for any confusion regarding who I am. I am ...Sorry for any confusion regarding who I am. I am not Gary Webb. I pastored the same church, which I planted, for 37 years in NW Washington state before going into pulpit supply. I appreciate all the comments to my original comment. My response would be the old line about a text without a context is a pretext. Paul certainly did not have evangelism in mind when he wrote this verse.<br /><br />I agree that the death spoken of in v. 23 is spiritual death. Every time a believer sins, he is spiritually separated from God in fellowship. That is spiritual death. He is not living out the benefits of eternal life, which is the life of Christ in us, Who indwells us. cf. John 17:3, I John 1:1-5; 5:20. See also Col. 1:28; II Cor. 13:10.<br /><br />The sin issue of unbelievers is not dealt with in Rom. 6-8.<br /><br />Again, thanks for the input on my comment.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17347398366709333912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-11698460389917431762016-06-16T09:49:27.151-07:002016-06-16T09:49:27.151-07:00Lance,
I agree.Lance,<br /><br />I agree.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-35556491220098210302016-06-16T09:48:15.150-07:002016-06-16T09:48:15.150-07:00Jim,
I'm heading out somewhere, but I don'...Jim,<br /><br />I'm heading out somewhere, but I don't mind interacting with your comment, but it will take more time than I have, and so I can't answer it right now, because of time. I'll come back later.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-50076067261678422016-06-16T09:40:31.641-07:002016-06-16T09:40:31.641-07:00Hello,
I almost 100% sure that "Gary" i...Hello,<br /><br />I almost 100% sure that "Gary" is not "Gary Webb." I said, "Thanks, Gary" because I didn't want to read into his comment without saying the same things that some of the others are saying to him. I also was interested if others would make a comment to him.<br /><br />He doesn't use Romans 6:23. There are other verses to use to make the point people usually do from Romans 6:23, so if he doesn't use it, because he doesn't want to take it out of context, I didn't want to spend time arguing with that.<br /><br />Is there an argument to use it? Yes. The wages of sin is still death. That's almost exclusively the point I take from it, when I do use it in evangelism, but accompanied with many other verses on the penalty for sin.<br /><br />It is true, as Thomas was writing, that the point of my post is to show that the actual message of Romans 6:23 contradicts the typical false gospel that is preached, using Romans 6:23 to get there. That is almost entirely the point of my post. I wasn't writing it to encourage people not to use Romans 6:23.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-63707621524580246862016-06-16T08:07:13.788-07:002016-06-16T08:07:13.788-07:00Yes, the context supports that the "wages of ...Yes, the context supports that the "wages of sin is death" to the Christ-life being produced in the believers life (Romans 6:11-13). The gift of eternal life is the present gift of the Christ-life produced through grace enabling of the indwelling Spirit through full surrender. The text is about the practical sanctification of a yielded believer in synergism ("fellowship") with the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Lance Ketchumhttp://www.disciplemakerministries.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-16065343529489106512016-06-16T06:28:07.827-07:002016-06-16T06:28:07.827-07:00By the way. I regret to say, but need to say, that...By the way. I regret to say, but need to say, that I assumed that Gary is Pastor Gary Webb. If it is, then my comments remain. If not, then, I apologize to "Gary" and to Pastor Webb. I ask for both of your forgiveness. If Gary happens to be Gary Webb, then, hello from the beautiful rolling hills of South Central, PA. If it isn't Pastor Webb then, hello, I too, like you, appreciate this post and the misuse of Rom. 6:23.Bill Hardeckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15552819877860565186noreply@blogger.com