tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post8883230982631957195..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Judging People to Be UnsavedKent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-33259985157868493532012-03-27T08:43:45.769-07:002012-03-27T08:43:45.769-07:00Kent, I think from what you've said you would ...Kent, I think from what you've said you would have judged the I Cor. 5 guy to be unsaved when you put him out of the church. Yet, he was saved. <br /><br />Of course you treat someone like that differently. We're told to, and anyway, if we don't it's meaningless to put him out. And of course you don't assume he's saved. He probably isn't -- but doesn't this case demonstrate that we shouldn't be making judgments one way or another? <br /><br />Perhaps I can demonstrate what I'm getting at this way. What should the pastor in Corinth have been telling this man?<br />A) "You're saved because you said a prayer once but you're losing your reward" -- this or any variation on it is horrible, of course.<br />B) "You're not saved, I can tell by your fruit" -- in the Corinthian case, that would have been just wrong because he turned out to be saved after all.<br />C) "You aren't living like you are saved, so we'll treat you like you aren't and let God deal with you. We don't know your eternal condition, but we can see your sin and God is going to judge that, maybe even kill you" -- isn't this the Biblical thing to say?<br /><br />Am I missing something obvious?Jon Gleasonhttp://www.mindrenewers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-85090677816438023292012-03-27T06:29:38.074-07:002012-03-27T06:29:38.074-07:00Church discipline is about the Lord Jesus' aut...Church discipline is about the Lord Jesus' authority. When people are "churched" if all of God's people would treat them like the outcasts that they choose to be, then maybe they would see the error of their ways and return to God. But we have many who think that church discipline is about politics and personalities and so some don't esteem the excommunication as anything - then the whole process becomes meaningless, and reconciliation can never take place. I think there are several factors involved here:<br />1. Not weighing in The Lord's authority.<br />2. A failure in some pastor's teaching ministry and oversight in disciplinary matters. (The church at Corinth was puffed up and thought themselves to be something for tolerating a fornicating member).<br />3. A failure to understand the ramifications of church discipline. (The obstinate member who would be brought to discipline is probably wondering "so what, if I do get disciplined?" - the discipline, in their minds have no teeth). <br />I think Pastor Brandenburg is on to something here at least on the level of how we should treat an erring brother when they get to the place where they are to be disciplined off of their membership.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11879718171217215602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-78771904911072013832012-03-26T17:55:31.552-07:002012-03-26T17:55:31.552-07:00Hi Jon.
You've got these two categories that ...Hi Jon.<br /><br />You've got these two categories that Jesus and then Paul uses: them that are within and them that are without. Those without are not saved and that fits with 1 John 2:19---they went OUT, because they were not OF. Why? They loved this present world. I believe loved is perfect tense, but I'd have to look that up to be sure.<br /><br />I think that when you've got someone in your church, who professes to be saved, and he is lazy or not following Scripture, you are admonishing as a brother, but once he stops listening, won't hear, and is put out of the church, he is to be unto you as a heathen man. You regard him differently.<br /><br />I used Mt 7:21-23 because people will say one thing, but the truth is something absolutely different like we see in James and 1 John. Someone may say he knows God, but when he doesn't characteristically keep the commandments, he is a liar. He is a liar about knowing God. He shouldn't be considered to know God.<br /><br />I think the guy in 1 Cor 5 that came back in 2 Cor would have proven himself to have been a brother, because his faith overcame the world. There is definitely a time in which we are watching to see if a guy is serious about his repentance (2 Cor 7:10-11). The 1 Cor 5 guy cleared himself.<br /><br />Thanks for commenting.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-3394373689191342752012-03-24T01:41:08.786-07:002012-03-24T01:41:08.786-07:00Hi, Kent. I'm not sure I would say we are to ...Hi, Kent. I'm not sure I would say we are to judge people to be unsaved. Check my logic and tell me what you think.<br /><br />We have three main passages on church discipline. Matthew 18 you've quoted. II Thess. 3:15 says not to count him an enemy, but admonish as a brother. I Cor. 5 says we judge those in the church, but someone under church discipline is put outside where God judges.<br /><br />My conclusion is that, in terms of fellowship, we are to treat these as unsaved, in terms of admonishing we speak to them as sinning brothers rather than lost sinners, and in terms of judging we just put them outside where God judges and we don't. They aren't our business anymore. <br /><br />I would suggest that I Cor. 5 tells us not to judge them either as saved or unsaved. We've been told how to treat them (Mt. 18) and speak to them (II Thess. 3), and we should just stick with that and let God sort out the "saved or not" question.<br /><br />In context, I'm pretty well convinced that Matthew 7:21 is talking about identifying false teachers. The verses before talk about false teachers, the verses after talk about the kind of claims that false teachers would make.<br /><br />I strongly agree with your last paragraph, and that the verses you've cited are verses that those who are under church discipline should consider. <br /><br />I just don't see Scriptural basis for going that extra step to judging someone to be unsaved. In fact, Corinthians makes that very problematic, because it appears from 5:5 that we may be talking about a saved person here (and perhaps II Cor. supports that by telling of his repentance).<br /><br />Thoughts?Jon Gleasonhttp://www.mindrenewers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-90379344333264679002012-03-23T13:10:45.087-07:002012-03-23T13:10:45.087-07:00Practical and to the point. I actually really appr...Practical and to the point. I actually really appreciated this post. I know there is much more that could be written. If the mood takes you I know a few other short practical primers on the application do a Bible teaching would be well received here!<br /><br />God bless,<br /><br />JoshuaJoshuanoreply@blogger.com