tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post4625581004288764429..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: When I Left Fundamentalism part fiveKent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-4951969433091114242011-03-31T07:21:28.851-07:002011-03-31T07:21:28.851-07:00Anvil's Naboth example stands on its own to sa...Anvil's Naboth example stands on its own to say where he is coming from.<br /><br />Ditto Joshua.<br /><br />I've decided to close the comments on this post.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-81076570118351511732011-03-31T06:57:49.347-07:002011-03-31T06:57:49.347-07:00Pastor Webb,
As this is a blog post, I'm not ...Pastor Webb,<br /><br />As this is a blog post, I'm not exactly sure what sort of responsibility I'm attempting to free myself from. I was really just trying to understand what this post had to do with fundamentalism in general. If our church ever had need to deal with Bethel or the errant member in the future, then I can see where our responsibility as a NT church would come in. And at that point, there would need to be one thing more present that I haven't really discussed, because for the purposes of KB's post, it's not really necessary -- that is, burden of proof. Should our church actually have to deal with this situation, during the time we sat down with Bethel, we would want to see this large folder of documentation they have kept. (As a member of the missions committee at my church, if we ever get a Filipino BWM missionary candidate, I will definitely be looking closely and possibly even contacting BBC, that is, if they would honor a contact from a "fundamental" church in the camp they have left.)<br /><br />Our church does deal with BWM, and I can tell you that thankfully, they have not acted you described with the unnamed mission board. They did notify us in the past of a missionary that had resigned, but they pointed to and included a letter from the pastor of the sending church that gave the necessary details (so that we wouldn't just blindly support him in the future). That's the way I believe it should be handled, as it is the sending church that will be dealing with the sin, and that has the authority. I'm unsure as to why you would think I believe it's OK in the situation with the missionary you mentioned for there to be no reasons given for his departure from the field. I believe you are right that the supporting churches need to know, although again, I think the board should have had the sending church give the details.<br /><br />As far as "rampancy" is concerned, I think you are guilty of the part to whole fallacy given by Titus above. Even if you have 20 more concrete examples of something like what you've detailed, that's a tiny fraction of the thousands of fundamental churches out there. Your comparison would be like me calling "landmarkism" and "Ruckmanism" rampant among the LCO and KJVO camps, and therefore invalidating the LCO and KJVO positions, which I'm sure you would dispute.<br /><br />Finally, if you think you were insulting me on my using logical argumentation rather than throwing around statements like "You are demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence toward God," well then I take that as a badge of honor. I haven't attacked your motives because I am assuming that both you and KB are doing what you believe is right. Believe it or not, I'm doing the same.Anvilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-25978014718905271752011-03-31T06:15:30.221-07:002011-03-31T06:15:30.221-07:00Pastor Brandenburg, churches practice discipline (...Pastor Brandenburg, churches practice discipline (or should, if they don't) because they are commanded to do so. It's that simple. Does that mean that every church will always get it right? I don't believe so. But if they act on what they know and in a biblical fashion, God will sort it out.<br /><br />Consider Naboth in the OT. He was judged (falsely) based on the testimony of two false witnesses. You can't tell from the text if the judgment, including the stoning, was carried out in an unjust fashion. For all we know, the judge was one of the few righteous who had not bowed the knee to Baal in that country, and the people may have just been carrying out the law as they knew and understood it. And yet, because of the two false witnesses, the judgment they carried out was a false judgment. You don't read about God going after anyone but Ahab after that incident. The judgment and stoning were as commanded by God, but they got it wrong. The same thing can happen anytime sinful people are involved.<br /><br />So can I trust every discipline decision made by an independent NT church, acting as they should? No, because even one person not right with God at that proceeding could skew the results, just as Achan's sin before the battle of Ai caused the Israelites to lose. None of that means we shouldn't follow God's commands and carry out the discipline as understood by the church. However, the only one I trust to get it right all the time is God.<br /><br />P.S. "Strong statements" was referring to things like "calling me a liar," "willfully denying," "demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence," and such like.Anvilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-29416261417460271692011-03-31T04:00:21.870-07:002011-03-31T04:00:21.870-07:00Scott,
I think that I am going to sign off on thi...Scott,<br /><br />I think that I am going to sign off on this discussion for now. If you want to understand what I said, read Joshua's post.<br /><br />I don't think that I know Joshua, so I don't think that he is defending me because I am his friend or something. He is simply stating what I wrote and what it meant. The proof that he properly understands what I wrote is the "Open Letter On The Integrity of the NT Church."<br /><br />I will say it again, just to be clear. When a NT church follows the Word of God in disciplining a sinning individual and someone discards the action by that church, he is "demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence toward God."Gary Webbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-20247034077115363982011-03-30T22:26:02.453-07:002011-03-30T22:26:02.453-07:00What I think needs to be realized here is that peo...What I think needs to be realized here is that people are dragging down something spiritual to a carnal, fleshly, man-vs-man slugmatch.<br /><br />This isn't some backyard dispute over the height of the fence. If Bethel Baptist has correctly followed Matthew 18, then Jesus Christ was the one who removed this man, not Kent. Bethel bound it on Earth, and the Lord bound it in heaven.<br /><br />Many of you just can't seem to grasp this, which is why you keep reverting to "let it go". That's the spiritual option - in a man-vs-man striving, a clash of two egos. But this is a spiritual matter.<br /><br />Secondly, Bethel didn't put another church under discipline. They were concerned that a church they were in fellowship with was dishonouring Christ by rejecting His removal of this man from His churches. Bethel requested a meeting to talk it through, and it was thrown in their face. This revealed the true nature of their "fellowship", and thus separation took place. I trust that Bethel would still be happy to talk with that church should they ever desire a restoration of fellowship.<br /><br />Scott, this is why Gary has taken a forceful approach to what you are doing. You have come here and are fighting against the doings of our Lord with your words. You and many others in fundamentalism seem to always have a thousand+ reasons for why church discipline shouldn't be practiced or upheld in another church "this time".Joshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-18969284631284210902011-03-30T20:35:54.383-07:002011-03-30T20:35:54.383-07:00Scott,
It's late here and I need to read your...Scott,<br /><br />It's late here and I need to read your stuff a little slower, but our whole church is not "one witness." Not based on Scripture. We had one witness, two or three witnesses, and then a whole church of witnesses. This isn't a he said-she said situation where someone saw someone with another person's wife, no other witnesses. A whole church witnessed this. That's the story. You could come on here and say that you don't believe it, but you are calling me a liar. Our whole church, each body part, each member, witnessed it. The other church did not witness it. With church discipline after two or three witnesses, you don't need any more witnesses. The whole church is then to agree, because the truth is established by two or three witnesses. Then another church who says it is in fellowship with us is to take that witness.<br /><br />You also seem to be saying that the other church called us and then when we contacted them, that church wanted to meet. Both are not true. And you are saying that you cannot believe that without having the other church in as a witness. I believe that would be stronger documentation than it normally takes almost anyone to believe a story.<br /><br />I believe you are reserving a special kind of disbelief for us here, Scott. I don't know why. It's just what is happening.<br /><br />When people write stories, such as this, do you normally expect there to be several authors, and expect several men to give witness that what is being said is true? When you read a missionary autobiography, do you simply not believe what is written unless there is a footnote in which two other people sign off on what the biographer writes? I really want to know if this is your normal standard, Scott. Please let me know.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-35160514306967575802011-03-30T17:08:55.714-07:002011-03-30T17:08:55.714-07:00@Gary continued
You also used the words, "&...@Gary continued <br /><br />You also used the words, ""demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence" What you fully said was " demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence toward God." Again there's what you 'left' out and the word God 'right' there in what you actually said. I keep getting confused by whether is ‘left’ or ‘right.’ Besides taking God out of the statement as though its just general lack of reverence you also directed the comments at a concept instead of me when you said, ""demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence" comes from the fact that the other church did not contact Bethel Baptist concerning accepting a member from Bethel." How do you take a phrase meant for me to apply to the concept regarding another church? I either had a lack of reverence toward God or not. Not toward a church’s actions. And how would one avoid “demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence”? By saying 'Kent is true!'? Nothing less? <br /><br />Is it wrong to actually declare that another witness to the whole thing is needful for us to make a definitive decision since we only have one side? We’re just asking for truth to be established by two or even three (the mission board too) like the Bible teaches before reaching a conclusion. "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established," (Deut. 19:15). Matthew 18:16 says, ". . . in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."<br /><br />Kent and his whole church is still one side. The other church must speak for us to be able to know, as this thread declares, ‘what is truth.’ We can affirm that Kent declares himself to be true. And he very well is. The other church may be too in their actions with the man. But in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. All ‘we’re’ saying that appear so ‘willful’ and ‘irreverent’ is there’s another side and it has to be heard for this to be clear. That’s not calling anybody a liar or false. Even Jesus affirms the validity of that principle by applying it to Himself in John 5:31 “"If I alone bear witness of Myself, My testimony is not true.”<br /><br />You said I was "demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence" Since a lack of reverence toward God is what you actually said. Google that phrase even w/o quotes and the first ref. is from a sermon with the words "Impiety toward God, ungodliness, lack of reverence." Wow, Google works as advertised. What about quotation marks you say? At the top,again is "“Ungodliness” (impiety) is lack of reverence toward God. This is sin against God. ..." That's what the use of that phrase comes up as and that just the tip of the iceberg. 'Willfully denying' (jk) that by either leaving out key words or directing the context somewhere else isn't kosher either is like demonstrating a lack of re...oh never mind. :) <br /><br />You 'left' something out and that's not 'right' Gary.Scott Leighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550119391077576086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-9313175566529461822011-03-30T16:27:20.877-07:002011-03-30T16:27:20.877-07:00@ Gary Webb While we're thinking left and righ...@ Gary Webb While we're thinking left and right let's put your statements left side by the right side shall we? " "willfully denying" the Bible" and "I simply pointed out that you denied what the passage teaches." No you didn't 'simply' point out denying what the Bible says you said 'willfully' which in my dictionary has always meant that something is very, very wrong like in this Bible dictionary's definition of blasphemy "Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is willfully denying Christ after having received a perfect knowledge of him from the Holy Ghost" Webster's Dict. uses the example of "willful murder" and has the words 'obstinate; perverse; inflexible; stubborn; refractory;' used to describe the word willful. Do you really think things like 'perverse' is befitting a believer? I really doubt you can find the phrase "willfully denying" and Bible in a non-apostate-ish context. Care to try? And after Anvil brought up and reiterated by Kent that we live in a sin cursed earth makes it that much more awkward.<br /><br />Again you can try to soft pedal as you did by using the word 'deny' without 'willfully' and do the same for willful by using it apart from the other word to just mean something like 'self-determined' but you linked the two words and they together carry the added reactionary effect like simple yet 'strong' ammonia and bleach can produce poisonous gas. Perhaps 'simply' wasn't accurate. Cause its 'simply' over-the-top to use toward a brother. I sincerely doubt you've ever used that phrase for someone you thought to be a Christian have you? 'Hey brother, you're willfully denying the Bible.' Hmm, doesn't go together. <br /><br />There's all the difference in the world between 'denying' and 'willfully denying' and for those of us careful to include every jot and tittle even more so but in reply you conveniently left that right term out. There's a definition of perjury "making of willfully false affirmations." I could continue that line of the word 'willfully' being used in negative contexts in general but lets just stick with that KJV Bible for a second OK? <br /><br />Only one verse with 'wilfully.' Heb. 10:26 "For if we sin wifully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Doesn't sound like the writer was 'simply' pointing out something. How about 'willingly' in II Pet. 3:5 "For this they willingly (willfully ASV) are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:" Sounds even worse! I certainly wouldn't say the writer is saying he's just pointing out something would you? He's making the point that these stubborn people are unbelievers. The writer is s'simply pointing out' that this person must not believe by willingly (same as willfully) although willingly is much tamer than willfully) ignoring truth. Plain and simple. I just keep getting your 'left' out stuff confused with the terms 'right' there in context. <br /><br />Please own up to what the clear definition is to certain phrases and either accept responsibility by calling me an unbeliever (only unbelievers can willfully deny the Bible) or a believer and you're sorry (hopefully) for using it. But retelling by leaving out info or redefining isn't kosher. I suppose now that makes two wrongs that must be made 'right' so please don't leave one 'left' out. <br /><br />More later on that other phrase ill used.Scott Leighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550119391077576086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-78464637803048762062011-03-30T16:16:20.572-07:002011-03-30T16:16:20.572-07:00This thread has taken a strange twist has it not? ...This thread has taken a strange twist has it not? From "why I left" to "why I'm right." Now that I'm confused whether this is to the left or the right allow me to reengage for a moment.<br /><br />A verse came to mind when this whole thing started to turn from 'left' to 'right' from Prov. 18:17 the KJV "He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him." This is the truth inherent in all, Bias on the side of self. Matthew Henry's comments were wise, “We must therefore remember that we have two ears, to hear both sides before we give judgment.” That's what we have here. Kent gives one side and expects as the first in his own cause to be seen as true. All searches from others that seem to be leading to other conclusions are dismissed. <br /><br />Scripture teaches hearing BOTH sides before a decision is made. II Sam. 16:1-3, 19:24-27 and Acts 24:5-13 are examples. So as Clarke remarks, "Any man may, in the first instance, make out a fair tale, because he has the choice of circumstances and arguments. But when the neighbor cometh and searcheth him, he examines all, dissects all, swears and cross-questions every witness, and brings out truth and fact." <br /><br />Kent you would do well to 'buck up' and take the neighborly searchings from brothers no less and not be so defensive.Perhaps more on that later.Scott Leighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550119391077576086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-46097672829349147632011-03-30T08:48:33.528-07:002011-03-30T08:48:33.528-07:00Anvil,
Well written. Logical arguments. It all ...Anvil,<br /><br />Well written. Logical arguments. It all serves to dismiss the testimony that Brandenburg has given & the action Bethel Baptist has taken & to allow others to do the same without any conscience. <br /><br />You wrote:<br />"Finally, my whole point, as stated in my first post in this thread, is that even if things happened exactly as you related them, it's an indictment only on the other church and the particular mission board, not on fundamentalism in general, so I still contend that it's not "fundamentalism" that's at fault in those events, even if something present in fundamentalism made it easier for them to happen."<br /><br />Your contention here again will seem logical to those who read, but it is not true. Many pastors reading what Brandenburg has written will have encountered the same type of experiences with "fundamental" mission boards & schools. A missionary from our church - someone you know very well - found out while on the mission field that the man with whom he had been working [from another fundamental mission board] was committing adultery. He was in his 50s; the girl in her late teens & early 20s. What did the mission board do when it found out? Well, they sent out a positive letter stating that the missionary was resigning after years of faithful service. No statement about his wicked sin. Did the mission board have a responsibility to inform his supporting churches of the missionary's sin? Sure, it could be logically argued that that board had no responsibility. Therefore, with a good conscience the effect of the board's letter was to allow churches to support that unqualified man. <br /><br />What Brandenburg is writing about is rampant in fundamentalism. And, one of the primary reasons it is so is because many are unwilling to make "strong" statements but are much more comfortable with logical, well-reasoned arguments that free themselves from Biblical responsibility.Gary Webbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-29465606792516032482011-03-30T06:55:23.754-07:002011-03-30T06:55:23.754-07:00Anvil,
One more thing. If the "sin-cursed w...Anvil,<br /><br />One more thing. If the "sin-cursed world" excuse is valid and as you describe it, then how can any church practice discipline? No church could believe any of its discipline. All of its judgment is too skewed to be accurate for discipline. That's really where you are at in this. No one should be able to judge anything, because they can't trust their judgment.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-54867779755414026842011-03-30T06:53:28.723-07:002011-03-30T06:53:28.723-07:00Anvil,
This is a sin-cursed world, something obvi...Anvil,<br /><br />This is a sin-cursed world, something obvious to me and most readers here, as you would know. What you are saying is that the curse of sin has led to some misrepresentation or twisting or skewing of the facts here, and in your testimony it must be not on purpose. The curse of sin could affect purpose too, motivation too, couldn't it? So why stop in its affects on our church? What objective basis do you have for stopping at just a skewed perspective?<br /><br />You are questioning the story because of the character of myself and our whole church. I am reading what you are saying. And this is based upon what I have written being "strong." "Strong" is ambiguous and vague. Dogmatic? Different than you? More conservative than you? How does that relate to character, to truthfulness? But, of course, you don't mean truthfulness, because that would be too strong (which seems to be a bad thing in your judgment). We are just fooled more than most.<br /><br />If I were receptive to a more wide variety of contradicting beliefs, I would be less strong, and, therefore, more believable. Very much like the spirit of this age.<br /><br />I think it is true that you can choose what to believe here. I'm choosing something too, and, that is, I am choosing to believe you are choosing to put your head in the sand, because it is convenient for you. I think that puts us as about equals. I'm not as believable because of my lack of "cred," and you put your head in the sand. You are believing who and what you want to believe based on a particular predisposition. You can do that. I believe most will do that. However, I have a thick notebook of documentation for all of this that would stand up in court if it had to. I also have a conscience. Everything I've said here is absolutely true. Others may deny it, but we all must stand before God.<br /><br />Regarding fundamentalism, I'm not done with my story yet. I do believe that this is going to happen and keep happening in fundamentalism, because it is endemic to fundamentalism. Fundamentalism doesn't have the machinery to stop it. These movements are extra-scriptural and they can't do what a church can do to stop something from happening, which is tell-tale.<br /><br />I don't believe everything I read or hear, but I do believe if I don't have proof otherwise. I would be sure that if you checked with other sources, they might give another story. That happens in court all the time, two different stories to sort out. I assure you that this one is true. I have a whole church full of witnesses.<br /><br />You are making a choice to believe one side in this. To do so, you are saying the other side is not true. You choose to say "skewed perspective." You are not being a friend to fundamentalism or to the characters in the story, one of whose name you chose to make no longer google-proof, by overlooking this. But it is your choice. If you believe me, your relationship to fundamentalism likely changes, but if you don't believe me, your relationship with me doesn't change. You don't see yourself in fellowship with me anyway nor I with you, so this is an easy call for you. And this also represents how it works in fundamentalism.<br /><br />The truth will stand, whether we believe it or not.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-9100830910692730432011-03-30T04:07:45.421-07:002011-03-30T04:07:45.421-07:00Continued from last message...
I've already s...Continued from last message...<br /><br />I've already said in this thread that I agree that the other church should have been willing to meet with you, and that their communication with you should have been different. When it comes to both churches, I don't know either of them, so I can't evaluate your church to be more trustworthy than the other one (though you did relate an experience about an ordination, which was probably intended to cast light on how accepting the member would have gone), but that's irrelevant to us knowing for sure what the process was for accepting this member, and it says nothing about what may have changed in his life that would permit them to allow him to join. I've also had no interaction with your church at all (including any earlier years that might have been different now that some of your practices may be different), which means I have no basis on which to compare your church with what you have related. In all fairness, I also do not know (other than what you related), what your letter to the other church looked like. Given your penchant for strong statements, it could have come across differently than may have been intended.<br /><br />Further, I've made no statement about the member himself, because he has no credibility with me either way, so I'm not discounting he may have lied to the other church, but again, I don't generally evaluate the actions of someone lied to as having been necessarily bad because they were taken in, if they acted in good faith on what they did know.<br /><br />Also, note that I haven't attacked your actually disciplining the member, as you are accusing me of assuming you and your church were "acting in a wicked fashion." Even if the other church disagreed with the reasons for church discipline of that member, I would agree that your church has the right to carry out discipline. I only stated that it's reasonable, if the other church decided your discipline was either invalid, or over something they did not hold, for them to be able to accept the member.<br /><br />Finally, my whole point, as stated in my first post in this thread, is that even if things happened exactly as you related them, it's an indictment only on the other church and the particular mission board, not on fundamentalism in general, so I still contend that it's not "fundamentalism" that's at fault in those events, even if something present in fundamentalism made it easier for them to happen. There are fundamental churches out there that would have handled things in the right way, whether or not the conclusion would have come out as you wished it to. And further, as has been discussed more in this thread, a mission board can do nothing more than ask two independent NT churches to reconcile, but when accepting or rejecting a candidate that is not agreed on by those two churches, will still have to make a decision that one of those churches will not agree with. If you decide to never work with that board or any board ever again, that's your church's prerogative, but it's not because you can say all fundamental mission boards would act the same as what you experienced.Anvilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-82022314265095464952011-03-30T03:46:11.199-07:002011-03-30T03:46:11.199-07:00Pastor Brandenburg,
I think whatever message you ...Pastor Brandenburg,<br /><br />I think whatever message you are getting is the wrong one, whether through lack of clarity on my part, or misunderstanding on yours, but given what you've written, I'm not sure we'll be able to see eye-to-eye on the details of interaction.<br /><br />You must not live in the same fallen world that I do, or else you must think people implicitly call you a liar all the time. I didn't take you for someone who believes everything they hear or read, but I guess I have to concede that I was wrong on that. I'm sure I'm also somewhat more cynical than average, after having learned the hard way that things can't always be taken at "face value," i.e. what they seem to be and appear to be on the surface. However, I do know that even when the facts have been relayed correctly, the truth value of what is presented is easily shaded by what is not there as much as by what is there, even if that's unintentional.<br /><br />All truth outside of God's truth has a context that must be understood, and even much of what God has revealed to us must be understood correctly in its context. That's why we need sound exegesis to "rightly divide the word of truth."<br /><br />Let me give an example of what I mean by context. If I know two people who tell me something tastes terrible after they've tried it, but one of those people is someone who generally hates everything except what they already know, and one of them tries about anything, and usually likes new experiences, then even if both of them are telling the truth (and I know them, so I assume they are), the information relayed by each of them is NOT the same. All of us have probably also experienced our children coming to us with something like "he hit me," which while almost always a true statement, probably needs some other information to determine the whole truth.<br /><br />How do I apply this to you? I've read enough of both you and Pastor Webb (and I've heard both of you preach) to know that both of you are given to strong statements, a number of which have been displayed in this thread. When I hear more such statements from you, the prior history of your interaction will affect how I hear what you are saying. The same strong statement from another pastor who doesn't make such strong statements easily, will carry a different weight from that of someone who uses them easily. That's just a fact of human interaction.<br /><br />Then there is the whole idea of relative credibility which plays into this as well, something you may dismiss as being part of the cronyism you ran into, but it still a big part of interaction. I know you and Dr. Moritz about equally well, which is to say, other than some very small personal interaction after sermons, having heard you preach, and reading some of what you've written, not very well at all (even though I've interacted with you a bit on the internet, but not enough to really know you). That means whatever credibility either of you has with me comes to some extent from others I know who know you. I know a number of men who speak well of Dr. Moritz, and less that speak well of you. Does that mean only that he's "in" and you are "out" in the circles I've had contact with? I suppose it could mean that, but when I have to evaluate something with a lack of first-hand evidence, such credibility counts for something. That's why there is the concept of character witnesses, something you also took advantage of when you and the other member wrote your letters to BWM about the member wanting to be a missionary. Since you are relating something about Dr. Moritz' interaction with you, which he is not here to defend, I can believe you are telling your side honestly without believing I have the full story, since he has some "cred" as well.<br /><br />Continued in next message...Anvilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-25241995631151185732011-03-29T07:03:48.960-07:002011-03-29T07:03:48.960-07:00Anvil,
When you don't judge what I've wri...Anvil,<br /><br />When you don't judge what I've written at face value, as the truth, you are calling me a liar. If I read a similar story written by you, I would assume it was true until proven otherwise. If I judged it to be false, then I would be judging you to be lying. Now you might say that, no, you aren't calling me a liar, but you are simply saying that I have a "skewed perspective." Well, in this case, you would be saying that an entire New Testament church has a skewed perspective. If we can't trust a whole individual church, which in this case voted unanimously, everyone in agreement, to discipline someone from the church, then what church can you trust? It is a sad state of affairs when men as yourself assume a church is acting in a wicked fashion in their practice of discipline, everyone taking on a Diotrephes stance, casting a good brother out of the church for unbiblical reasons or no good reason at all. This was a brother who we loved, who was unrepentant. He would not provide for his own, would not work for the bread for his family, was idle, and was finally a busybody. Those are all biblical reasons for discipline without repentance. We attempted to make it as easy as possible for this man to change. Then that one man could deny that to the other church, a possibility that you did not mention in your defense of one person over our entire church. The other church could simply treat our church like we do not exist without ever communicating that to our church. <br /><br />I reported that I got a slanderous letter from the other pastor, and your comment seems to assume that what he wrote has the better possibility of being true than our charges against the man in discipline.<br /><br />At no time did the pastor who wrote that letter ever communicate any of the content to me until after we asked to reconcile with his church, because they had received a disciplined member. Do you think a meeting could have cleared up these differences in Scripture? No, that wasn't the problem to the other church. The problem was that we were disciplining, period, and that then we were challenging their acceptance of him into their membership, i.e., we weren't letting it go. It is true that we could not stop them from accepting him as a member, but we could warn that we would no longer be in fellowship, the only thing we could do to make the biblical point to that whole church. Most fundamentalists just give the cold shoulder. We didn't do that, but your reaction tells me why the cold shoulder is so often practiced by fundamentalists. That pastor had communicated only acceptance and friendship when we saw each other before. But then again, as I report this to you, I cannot hope to have you believe me. You have a predisposition toward not believing me or our whole church. I get the message, Anvil.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-5447694697843408872011-03-29T05:22:07.276-07:002011-03-29T05:22:07.276-07:00Pastor Brandenburg,
That would depend on a number...Pastor Brandenburg,<br /><br />That would depend on a number of things, some of which I have already mentioned on comments in this thread.<br /><br />If the church considering the new member disagreed with the other church's interpretation of certain scriptures, and the discipline was the result of those differences, then yes, I believe the 2nd church could accept a disciplined member from the 1st church. That could have happened if the 2nd church did not agree with your view of "working" as bringing home the bacon. (Remember, your contention that he was doing no work at all, but rather being lazy was not presented until you started responding to comments on this story, and a lot can happen in a year that you may not have had good knowledge of, since he was no longer attending your church.)<br /><br />Of course, if the reason they were disciplined was something both churches agree is taught in scripture, then unless there is repentance (including whatever steps are necessary to make things right), no, the 2nd church should not take on that member.<br /><br />Since we have not heard from the 2nd church, I can't tell you if they were right or wrong accepting your disciplined member. I have heard enough things like this to know that when you only hear from one side, you get a skewed perspective, even when both sides believe they are telling the truth. Definitions matter (like for the "filth" you stated was in the letter from the other church, and "behavior now worse" which you stated the former member was still guilty of at the new church, not just yours).<br /><br />Because of differences like this, and differences in perspective, I would strongly disagree that questioning your account is the same as calling you a liar. It has been proven that two eyewitnesses to an event can pass lie-detector tests and give completely different accounts of what happened. Further, when someone summarizes, they necessarily leave things out, and when the actions that come out of that look questionable, too strong, or even wrong, it is only natural then to dig deeper to see if we would agree with the actions you took. Otherwise, there is no point to even reading this other than saying "That's a good story" and moving on. If you are attempting to get your readers to evaluate their positions in fundamentalism, they would have to know more than what you related if they were to seriously consider what you are arguing.Anvilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-19013804118529322142011-03-28T22:50:45.405-07:002011-03-28T22:50:45.405-07:00Scott - Frankly, it really does seem that you'...Scott - Frankly, it really does seem that you're willfully denying the plain meaning of Acts 15. You can call that "judgmental" if you like, but that's really the way it comes off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-10723842921233188422011-03-28T21:21:30.029-07:002011-03-28T21:21:30.029-07:00Anvil,
Do you believe in a church taking in anoth...Anvil,<br /><br />Do you believe in a church taking in another church's disciplined member?Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-11307170878217294712011-03-28T21:18:03.122-07:002011-03-28T21:18:03.122-07:00Scott,
I only have a little time here and it'...Scott,<br /><br />I only have a little time here and it's late, and I'm away from home, but I haven't gone after your tone at all, when from the start, I thought your tone was poor. In our country, unfortunately, the victim receives elevated status, so that if you become the offended, through tone offense, you are now in the preeminent position in the discussion. However, I don't recognize as legitimate that new development. Those who questioned and did not accept our dealing with the other church are calling me a liar. I understand that. I was fine still with people questioning, because I want this to be a learning environment, but it is the same as being called a liar.<br /><br />When the other church takes in our disciplined member, that church must have a good reason to do so, better and truthful compared to the stated discipline of our church. That church never communicated that and never asked us for any explanation, even thought that church had never given us a reason not to fellowship. KJVO, local only ecclesiology, none of those were reasons given. They wouldn't have been. The church sent multiple students to a college that was KJVO and local only in its ecclesiology. None of the hypotheticals are true. What I am writing is true. If it isn't, then I am a liar. I get that message, Scott. So I would buck up, Scott, and be able to handle some things.<br /><br />And Anonymous, I don't get what the problem is with the quotes that you gave. Paul used sarcasm with people he said were believers, in 1 Corinthians 4. If the apostle Paul used it in scripture, then it is acceptable. If you are going to confront someone like you have, you should state your name.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-2610139974936572322011-03-28T16:30:49.209-07:002011-03-28T16:30:49.209-07:00"Scott, you are to be commended for standing ..."Scott, you are to be commended for standing for your fellowship..... I guess."<br /><br />"Scott, I have to wonder just how much Bible reading you must be doing."<br /><br />"Scott, my only response to what you have written is that it is a good example of somebody willfully denying what a passage clearly teaches."<br /><br />Sarcasm does not become you. It rarely becomes anyone, but especially I am saddened to see it between two believers. What must the world think if they would happen to read this? I hope that this is not the tone used with your congregtion.<br /><br />Mr. Brandenburg has been explaining a major move that he made, and the sniping, ungracious remarks have not been respectful to the original writing or to those who cared enough to read and respond. May I suggest much less personal and viscious barbs? May I suggest that you consider James' view on the tongue a little more closely? Gentlemen, this ought not to be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-81232932159086443572011-03-28T14:42:26.657-07:002011-03-28T14:42:26.657-07:00Anvil,
I think that the concessions you make in y...Anvil,<br /><br />I think that the concessions you make in your first 2 paragraphs support my criticisms of earlier posts. Brandenburg wrote about an action that his church took, following Biblical principles. He did not give all the details, but he was immediately criticized as if his church had done something unscriptural and as if those who criticized him did know all the details. It should have been clear to all reading that he was summarizing because the post was about a larger story. When people "don't know" so many things, they ought to be slow to judge.<br /><br />In regard to Acts 15, it seems to me that the primary reason for writing the letter that would go to other churches is stated in verse 24 - they needed to clear up the impression that the church in Jerusalem had sent out Judaizers, when in fact, they had not. The letter repudiated the false doctrine taught by the Judaizers. Of course, the Jerusalem church was the church from which all the missionaries and evangelists had been sent forth. They did have apostles in the pastoral staff there, and of course, some of them were writing Scripture. It seems appropriate that they would make recommendations to the other churches that were started by men who went out from their church. This would not be as necessary after the NT was complete, but it would still be appropriate today for a "mother" church to advise churches started as a result of the "mother" church's ministry. <br /><br />You are right concerning the NT authority for a mission board. In contrast with that, great authority is given to NT churches, regardless of their size. My statement about "demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence" comes from the fact that the other church did not contact Bethel Baptist concerning accepting a member from Bethel. They did not even respond to Bethel's letter to them, a letter sent by registered mail. It was a letter from a church with whom Bethel had had fellowship. I do not know about the other readers of this blog, but I do not consider accepting a member in that fashion as being "evaluated and acted upon scripturally."<br /><br />Because of the tremendous authority granted to a NEW TESTAMENT church by Jesus Christ, reverence to Him means reverence for a NT church's decisions. The other church did not even answer to say, "We do not agree", yet the posts on this story have only tried to find fault with Bethel's action. Reverence - fear of God - respects those authorities God sets up. As I have mentioned before, our church has respected the disciplinary actions of other churches with whom we did not agree when those churches are at least "Bible-believing."Gary Webbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-35260866240342144622011-03-28T13:59:01.998-07:002011-03-28T13:59:01.998-07:00Scott,
I certainly appreciate your kind, loving, ...Scott,<br /><br />I certainly appreciate your kind, loving, non-judgmental reply to my post. From now on, I will try to follow the excellent pattern that you have set in your last response.<br /><br />Did I treat you like an apostate? I simply pointed out that you denied what the passage teaches. I consider that a serious error in exegesis, but I would not consider it apostasy. Sorry to have hurt you so badly. If you are going to expound a passage in a debate, you need to make sure you accurately analyze that passage rather than just writing what you think. <br /><br />By the way, unless your Bible has different verse divisions from mine "they determined that Paul and Barnabas" is found in Acts 15:2.<br /><br />As far as your points 1-8, I understood you to mean in point 1 that there was no apostolic authority in the case with Bethel Baptist that superseded the decisions made by others. If I misunderstood that, I apologize. But if I understood it correctly, then you are wrong again. Apostolic authority did not supersede any other authority in Acts 15. Please look carefully again at the text, particularly Acts 15:22- "Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren". Acts 15:23 says basically the same thing. Though the apostles are mentioned first, they are placed right in with the elders and the church without indicating any special authority. Indeed, the passage indicates that - though apostles did testify - it was James (not an apostle) who gave the ruling about what should be done (Acts 15:19). He was the pastor of the church, but not an apostle. I could address the other 7 points, but they are full of the same type of mistakes. <br /><br />If my writing tone was too harsh, I do apologize. It does get quite frustrating to deal with someone who writes authoritatively about what the Bible says and who corrects others ... when they do not know what they are writing about.Gary Webbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-77174307762325327872011-03-28T05:16:54.578-07:002011-03-28T05:16:54.578-07:00@Gary Webb:
First, maybe I misread these last two...@Gary Webb:<br /><br />First, maybe I misread these last two posts, but they did come off sounding (to me) as if Bethel was demanding certain things from the unnamed church (especially once it got to "the other church needed to repent," which may have been talking about their response rather than their decision to take the member, but that was not clear in the post). If the three dates were flexible, then I see no problem with offering them. It didn't read like Bethel considered them optional, though.<br /><br />As far as not knowing all the facts, it's because they haven't all been shared, but because of that, we have no way to know that Bethel acted any more properly than the unnamed church did. We only have Pastor Brandenburg's side of the story. We don't know, for example, under what circumstances the unnamed church accepted the disciplined member, and we don't know why he was recommended to BWM a year later. A lot can change in a year. We don't know how BWM evaluated the 2nd recommendation and how that was reconciled with the 1st. As a result, we can't know whether they acted improperly in reversing their prior decision. And again, if the unnamed church completely disagreed with the reasons for the member having been disciplined, they were within their rights to accept him, though I would agree that they should have been willing to meet with Bethel.<br /><br />On Acts 15, do you consider the edict issued by the Jerusalem church to have been binding on the other church? If it was issued by James and the congregation instead of by the apostles, under what authority could they compel another independent NT church to abide by all 4 of those regulations (with only one of them obviously moral, and at least one of which was disputed in other places in the NT)? Without apostolic authority being present, today's churches are certainly not in a position to demand anything of another independent church, including "repentance." Further, a mission board, which is only a service organization that has no real NT authority at all, can do no more than request that two disagreeing churches work it out, but in the face of two disagreeing churches, it will still be forced to make a decision, because it won't be able to satisfy both.<br /><br />And why is it that strongly questioning the actions of one church (Bethel) is "demonstrating a distinct lack of reverence toward God," while questioning the actions of the unnamed church (also a New Testament church) isn't? We don't know that their acceptance of the member from Bethel wasn't evaluated and acted on scripturally.Anvilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-66672997804266997952011-03-28T00:54:05.007-07:002011-03-28T00:54:05.007-07:00Well, well a decidedly sniping attitude has blosso...Well, well a decidedly sniping attitude has blossomed like ramps in WV at this time of year. You could have simply asked to enjoy yourselves alone without feeling the need to treat me as some unbelieving, heretical, apostate to give me the hint. When you can't discuss something civilly and feel the need to treat brethren with phrases such as "willfully denying" the Bible (that's pretty strong) and "a distinct lack of reverence toward God" (that's just downright judgmental) it shows the same kind of self-willed sectarianism Jesus taught against in Mark 9:40, " For he who is not against us is on our side." I sadly expected it but I guess I always hold out hope that those types can be self-controlled. Perhaps I made a mistake Mr. Webb? Perhaps I typed in error? Perhaps before using such colorful terminology one would best examine other alternatives to branding another in such ways?<br /><br />Nobody is attacking a church Mr. Webb. When one writes a blog they invite critique. Kent and Kent only holds the key to accepting those comments as approved by his moderation. If you must resort to these kinds of verbals lobs it reflects not just on you but all of us as believers, as pastors, and more importantly upon Christ. Watching brethren act so...so scornfully toward one another must give the enemy cause for rejoicing. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves.<br /><br />You ask, "You say in your #1, "no church mentioned". Who then is "they" in Acts 15:2 when it says "they determined that Paul and Barnabas..."? " I'm not entirely sure you read carefully what I wrote since my '#'1 enumerated point was "1) There was no apostolic authority that superseded the authority of the others as in this case." What you quoted was actually verse 1 of Acts 15. I will most gladly concede your point and thank you for the 'gracious' manner you pointed this out to me. <br /><br />As you overlooked a small hashtag it appears I overlooked an important matter as I rushed to prepare the real reason in writing which was points 1-8 in dissimilarity. You didn't mention anything in points 1-8. Is that because there was nothing in error or because there was no answer? <br /><br />But thank you anyway for not feeling the need to answer as it appears that I seem to bear out most unwelcome aspects in you Mr. Webb for which I am most sorry. I'm sure Kent can carry on ably with your assistance. Adieu.Scott Leighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550119391077576086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-42425638335710179372011-03-27T16:05:59.387-07:002011-03-27T16:05:59.387-07:00By the way, the church did begin during Jesus'...By the way, the church did begin during Jesus' earthly ministry; the body of Christ is the local church, and only the local church organized by the New Testament pattern has the authority to baptize. That is all different than affirming that each church must trace a visible chain-link succession. Baptist briders also do not say that only Baptists are saved.<br /><br />Since "Landmarker" (like "fundamentalist") is a non-Scriptural term, it can get twisted into putty. I am just saying that far too many people who call others Landmarkers have never read what those who coined the term actually said or actually believed.<br /><br />I think I got the point across, so I'm probably done; no need to beat a dead horse.Thomas Rosshttp://sites.google.com/site/thross7noreply@blogger.com