tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post3159440176200982788..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Ekklesia Means "Assembly", pt. 2Kent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-85806942297434845352013-11-02T13:29:11.419-07:002013-11-02T13:29:11.419-07:00To limit "the church" to local assemblie...To limit "the church" to local assemblies (though I agree the church is assembly that assemblies) is being short-sighted. The scriptures teach that the saints are part of "the church" collectively as they assemble themselves in churches locally. I do not have any issue in limiting that to "the church" on the earth. What I hate is the term "mystical" universal church, for that makes no sense when you can walk out the door of your local church, travel down the road and walk into another local church, which is part of THE church, the body of Christ. <br /><br />The church is not a bunch of independent local assemblies apart from one another. 1 Corinthians 16 shows how Paul and many of the saints "worked together", even Paul acknowledging and gave order to all the churches of Galatia (v1) to do the SAME thing in collecting monies for the saints in Jerusalem.<br /><br />Where today are the churches COLLECTIVELY collecting money for saints in other parts of the world?<br />(Oh, I see, we only obey the parts we believe!)<br /><br />Further, in v16, Paul tells the Corinthians to submit themselves to brethren of Achaia (a region that includes Athens and Corinth). That alone proves that local church mentality did not exist according to the bible.<br /><br />Further, toward the end of the chapter (v19), Paul says that "ALL the churches of Asia salute you".<br /><br />Why would a bunch of churches in Asia salute Corinth which was in Achaia? What is the point unless they knew each other and worked together for the glory of God?<br /><br />Further, in v20, it says that the "brethren salute you". Since Paul added this also, these are the brethren they either are with Paul on his current journey, or those they have conversed with Paul concerning the brethren in Corinth.<br /><br />Though the local churches are the building blocks, it is the church collectively that glorifies the true and living God and is "the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15).<br /><br /><br />The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-83865644874327340622013-10-31T17:39:56.288-07:002013-10-31T17:39:56.288-07:00Hi,
I relate to getting that kind of part time jo...Hi,<br /><br />I relate to getting that kind of part time job, especially a security job. I would do it if it was the best option. Hopefully, you can work while you do. Thomas Ross has been able to do that for a few years, getting his doctorate.<br /><br />Regarding Trench, I knew Trench goes further than a local church, but I was sheerly relying on his historical material, which is thoroughly documented. As he sticks to that, it matches what we read in Greek literature.<br /><br />As far as synagogue, I did notice Trench making a connection between the two, but I don't know if I agree with what he takes (a minor take) from his comparison. My take is that the Jews started meeting in their various places beginning with the Babylonian captivity, because there was no single congregation any more in Israel, no temple. This was a concept Jews understood and related to the church.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-48934012026883972712013-10-31T17:07:04.997-07:002013-10-31T17:07:04.997-07:00Hi Kent, just quickly, as far as understanding wha...Hi Kent, just quickly, as far as understanding what I am saying, you are confusing two separate articles. The first argues for the universal idea, the second for visible (as opposed to universal and local). So I think it confuses what you are saying in response.<br /><br />One other thing, I will try to get back and I look forward to future articles from you regardless, you should read Trench on the term very carefully, and read the whole article. I don't think in general he supports your view. He does comment on why synagogue (for the most part) was not used by the apostles (there are a couple of exceptions).<br /><br />Perhaps we will have to have dueling articles for a while to really hash this out.<br /><br />As time permits, of course. The rest of my week just got really hairy! I've taken a part-time security job, tonight I get to watch for the Great Pumpkin all night long. No joke! Well, not much joke anyway... municipality has a pumpkin display they don't want vandalized, so I get to be paid to watch it.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-28468449788858998162013-10-31T16:03:50.825-07:002013-10-31T16:03:50.825-07:00Hi Don,
I thought I bounced it off a first time, ...Hi Don,<br /><br />I thought I bounced it off a first time, and then read Joshua bounce it off you a second time, and I was just repeating what you said here. Certainly wasn't attempting to misrepresent you. I thought there was a universal church argument being made from the unassembled assembly. Are you saying only that Acts 9:31 and 1 Cor 10:32 don't apply? I've got to have it clarified, I guess. I don't mind tweaking things, since I'm arguing against something.<br /><br />I've read A. T. Robertson's Greek Grammar in the Light of Historical Record at least twice (1454 pages) and have used it a lot for reference. I know that language changes, but we are talking about something that didn't change. Certain words can be sanctified for scriptural use, but the only word that comes to mind is agape. The Greeks thought it was a weakness, and so it was a seldom used word in Greek literature. Regarding ekklesia, there is such an overwhelming consistent understanding, that since Jesus didn't explain a sanctified difference, there was nothing definitionally provided, we should assume it had the same meaning as people would have understood it, and then the usage in the NT bears that out.<br /><br />There is some background to "church" with a Jewish concept of the synagogue. I think that study is worth it. Is there a universal, invisible synagogue? I believe the easiest, best, most obvious explanation is what happened after the NT was complete to justify something bigger than lccal. Then it was spiritualized in line with that view of the kingdom.<br /><br />I was kind of expecting -- you made my point -- but how could I make your point? Every assembly was local. There was no assembly if it didn't assemble. The people were an assembly because they assembled. And they more than assembled. They assembled for a legislative purpose (like we see in Mt 18 and 1 Cor 6, by the way). There were larger concepts that related to people that didn't assemble, and those terms could have been used. They weren't. Usually that means something.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-38660577194852844992013-10-30T14:37:54.444-07:002013-10-30T14:37:54.444-07:00Hi Kent,
I don't have time at the moment for ...Hi Kent,<br /><br />I don't have time at the moment for an extensive response, but you are not presenting the argument correctly, so I thought I should point that out. Ryrie is not arguing for a changed meaning to ecclesia in Acts 9.31 and that is not the point I was making in my post. From that passage (and 1 Cor 10.32 and one other that escapes me at the moment), he is arguing for another term, the "visible church" as opposed to local or universal.<br /><br />You probably should read Ryrie to get the full understanding of his argument, my presentation is fairly brief.<br /><br />On the lexical data, you do agree that words develop in meaning over time, correct? Do you also agree that the New Testament writers developed their own set of terms for the new faith they were preaching? For example, diakonos - would any secular Greek writer mean the same thing of diakonos as Paul did?<br /><br />And last, suppose you succeed in showing that the Greeks referred to an assembly as the group of people not the meeting itself, so that the assembly exists as a group of people whether physically assembled or not. Aren't you just making my point? Do you have a church on Monday morning or not?<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.com