tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post2550656244506133025..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Sad Strawman: A Critique of David Cloud's "Repentance and Lordship Salvation Revisited"Kent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger105125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-26600714110998415372020-10-09T10:31:37.081-07:002020-10-09T10:31:37.081-07:00The link:
http://faithsaves.net/the-just-shall-li...The link:<br /><br />http://faithsaves.net/the-just-shall-live-by-faith/<br /><br />is now:<br /><br />https://faithsaves.net/just-faith/KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-63339829187759244542015-10-06T08:56:28.523-07:002015-10-06T08:56:28.523-07:00I attended meetings with Bro. Cloud over the weeke...I attended meetings with Bro. Cloud over the weekend at his sending church, and jotted down the following quote from one of his messages. In context, he was addressing Rob Bell's book <i>Love Wins</i> and Bell's denial of God sending people to Hell.<br />Bro. Cloud said this, "There's both severity and goodness in God's character. You can't throw away one of them without having a false god." Amen and amen. That almost sounds like saying you cannot throw away Christ's Lordship and keep His salvation without having a false god. To which I say again, amen and amen. It's too bad that his warnings about "lordship salvation" muddy the waters the way they do.James Bronsveldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18330385638322033748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-60790144411708357512014-03-20T10:49:02.546-07:002014-03-20T10:49:02.546-07:00For a comprehensive study of the entire "beli...For a comprehensive study of the entire "believe" word group in the Old and New Testament, please read my study here:<br /><br />http://faithsaves.net/the-just-shall-live-by-faith/KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-83289036239280518572014-03-20T10:46:46.447-07:002014-03-20T10:46:46.447-07:00Ga 1:10* For do I now persuade men, or God? or do ...Ga 1:10* For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.<br />Ga 3:1* O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?<br />Ga 5:7* Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?<br />Ga 5:10* I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.<br />Php 1:6* Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:<br />Php 1:14* And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.<br />Php 1:25* And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;<br />Php 2:24* But I trust in the Lord that I also myself shall come shortly.<br />Php 3:3* For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.<br />Php 3:4* Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:<br />2Th 3:4* And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.<br />2Ti 1:5* When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.<br />2Ti 1:12* For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.<br />Phm 21* Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say.<br />Heb 2:13* And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.<br />Heb 6:9* But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.<br />Heb 11:13* These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.<br />Heb 13:17* Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.<br />Heb 13:18* Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.<br />Jas 3:3* Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.<br />1Jo 3:19* And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-64800746055872213982014-03-20T10:46:40.761-07:002014-03-20T10:46:40.761-07:00Hi,
Notice that Lou quotes Robert Lightner and Ch...Hi,<br /><br />Notice that Lou quotes Robert Lightner and Charles Ryrie, Dallas guys, same school of Chuck Swindoll. I'm not saying all Dallas guys go the same direction, but they are generally not separatists and new evangelical. I understand so is MacArthur, but these are from Dallas, same school as Chafer, that if you trace the lineage here, there is an initial connection with Finney. Same trajectory. And Pickering is also a Dallas graduate. All quotations of Dallas graduates. I appreciate some of the separatist philosophy of Pickering, which would have tied in with BJU, where he got his undergrad, but he was still in that line of Dallas on this subject.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-71232854869759326492014-03-20T10:45:59.004-07:002014-03-20T10:45:59.004-07:00Ac 23:21* But do not thou yield unto them: for the...Ac 23:21* But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath, that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee.<br />Ac 26:26* For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.<br />Ac 26:28* Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.<br />Ac 27:11* Nevertheless the centurion believed the master and the owner of the ship, more than those things which were spoken by Paul.<br />Ac 28:23* And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.<br />Ac 28:24* And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.<br />Ro 2:8* But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,<br />Ro 2:19* And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,<br />Ro 8:38* For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,<br />Ro 14:14* I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.Ro 15:14* And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.<br />2Co 1:9* But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:<br />2Co 2:3* And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.<br />2Co 5:11* Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.<br />2Co 10:7* Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ’s, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ’s, even so are we Christ’s.<br />KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-66397453550082667642014-03-20T10:45:24.113-07:002014-03-20T10:45:24.113-07:00Ac 5:36* For before these days rose up Theudas, bo...Ac 5:36* For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.<br />Ac 5:37* After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.<br />Ac 5:40* And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.<br />Ac 12:20* And Herod was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: but they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king’s chamberlain their friend, desired peace; because their country was nourished by the king’s country.<br />Ac 13:43* Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.<br />Ac 14:19* And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.<br />Ac 17:4* And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.<br />Ac 18:4* And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.<br />Ac 19:8* And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.<br />Ac 19:26* Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:<br />Ac 21:14* And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.<br />KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-72163140116131678362014-03-20T10:44:27.062-07:002014-03-20T10:44:27.062-07:00Here are the peitho references:
Mt 27:20* But the...Here are the peitho references:<br /><br />Mt 27:20* But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.<br />Mt 27:43* He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.<br />Mt 28:14* And if this come to the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.<br />Mr 10:24* And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!<br />Lu 11:22* But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.<br />Lu 16:31* And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.<br />Lu 18:9* And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:<br />Lu 20:6* But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.<br />KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-83886926357070357782014-03-20T10:41:00.791-07:002014-03-20T10:41:00.791-07:00Bob,
I'm catching your sarcasm. I didn't...Bob,<br /><br />I'm catching your sarcasm. I didn't answer the question of, is there a passage that says you can be saved and not believe Lordship or be saved and not hear Lordship. You've got to believe Lordship, because there are passages that say that, even if other passages are silent. On can you believe Lordship when you didn't hear it, I don't have a passage, except those passages where it is silent on Lordship and someone gets saved. There are some of those. But not every passage tells us everything that was said or happened.<br /><br />Mr. Cloud, I think, believes about like we do. He just misrepresents Lordship salvation and confuses people on it, because he argues against a strawman.<br /><br />I think someone could be saved with Mr. Martuneac's presentation, but I also believe there will be many false professions because of what he does. I think he himself is saved, although it doesn't matter what I think, really. Overall, I believe he represents a false gospel and even if he barely gets under the threshold, he causes damage. Does anyone want to take a position that is probably a false gospel, let alone that we know is?Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-85919740600504424722014-03-20T10:40:58.989-07:002014-03-20T10:40:58.989-07:00Dear Jim,
Thanks for the testimony about the bles...Dear Jim,<br /><br />Thanks for the testimony about the blessing that this blog has been to you. It was a blessing to read it. We certainly do want to go only by what Scripture says.<br /><br />What I would say, Jim, in response to your question, is that when one trusts in Christ he is trusting in Him to save from the power of sin as well as the penalty of sin. That is the same thing as saying that saving faith involves surrender, because one who does not want Jesus to save him from the power of sin wants to keep his sin, and does not want Jesus. I have no problem saying that trust is fundamental to the pistis word group. That does not mean that trust excludes commitment, any more than trust excludes repentance.<br /><br />For another illustration of this, one that someone who does not know Greek can grasp, notice how the King James translates peitho (Strong's 3982) as both trust, believe, and obey. Notice that the apeitho (Strong's 544) word group is also translated as both disbelieve and disobey:<br /><br />Joh 3:36* He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.<br />Ac 14:2* But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.<br />Ac 17:5* But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.<br />Ac 19:9* But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.<br />Ro 2:8* But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,<br />Ro 10:21* But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.<br />Ro 11:30* For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:<br />Ro 11:31* Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.<br />Ro 15:31* That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;<br />Heb 3:18* And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?<br />Heb 11:31* By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.<br />1Pe 2:7* Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,<br />1Pe 2:8* And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.<br />1Pe 3:1* Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;<br />1Pe 3:20* Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.<br />1Pe 4:17* For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?<br />KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-25991595510861094582014-03-20T10:30:05.869-07:002014-03-20T10:30:05.869-07:00Dear Lou,
I understand that you may not have time...Dear Lou,<br /><br />I understand that you may not have time to actually get into the exegesis of passages of Scripture in your comments; I do not doubt that you are very busy. However, I rather suspect that both Pastor Brandenburg and I would find biblical exegesis much more convincing than quotations from new evangelicals affiliated with Dallas Seminary such as Ryrie. Speaking for myself at least, I don't really care what MacArthur says, what Ryrie says, etc. I would be interested in seeing how the anti-Lordship position is consistent with historic Baptist doctrine, though. The idea of repudiating my Baptist heritage and the plain exegesis of Scripture to adopt a position taught at Dallas seminary, a school founded by a Presbyterian, Chafer, seems extremely unappealing.<br /><br />I'm not sure if we're supposed to disagree with the quote by Dr. Robert Lightner, but we certainly do think that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone not by human effort, if that was even in question. We also agree with your quotation from Ryrie that a separate act of commitment or process of commitment in addition to faith is not the gospel. What we do believe is that trusting Christ as Savior is to trust in a Savior from both the penalty and power of sin. I can't comment on whether MacArthur would disagree with salvation by grace alone through faith alone, as you appear to believe that he does, because I've never read a book by him in my life. It would seem more appropriate to discuss MacArthur on his own blog and interact with Pastor Brandenburg and my position here, which is the historic Baptist doctrine of salvation, but I certainly have no desire to tell you what to do.<br /><br />I'm probably not going to respond to any further comments dealing with the works of men, unless it relates to the historic belief of Baptist churches. I would much rather discuss what Scripture says and what true churches have believed than what modern new evangelical writers say.<br /><br />KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-72011996552842434082014-03-20T05:22:43.106-07:002014-03-20T05:22:43.106-07:00Mr. Brandenburg,
Also, would you say that Mr. Mar...Mr. Brandenburg,<br /><br />Also, would you say that Mr. Martuneac or Mr. Cloud are preachers of a false gospel?<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-59017717968617273562014-03-20T05:20:35.497-07:002014-03-20T05:20:35.497-07:00Thank you again Mr. Brandenburg for your time and ...Thank you again Mr. Brandenburg for your time and your good answers to my questions (I am the one who asked for Scriptural examples of those who do not hear Lordship preached but get saved anyway). It must be my own obtuseness that keeps me from seeing the "plenty of examples" to which you refer (I admit I'm one of the "dummies.") I know you mentioned Matthew 1 as one example, and even there I don't see anyone getting saved in that chapter, but I will try to keep looking into it. I don't want to take up too much more of your time with this question. Thanks again for you help with this.<br /><br />BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-52425560876922016232014-03-19T20:47:13.695-07:002014-03-19T20:47:13.695-07:00For they themselves shew of us what manner of ente...For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)<br /><br />When the Thessalonians were saved, they turned from their idols to God with the intention of serving the living and true God (and waiting for his Son from heaven also, of course). How in the world "turned… to serve," a verb followed by an infinitive of purpose, can really mean that they didn't have to turn from their idols, but could keep them, and that they didn't really turn to God for the purpose of serving him, because that would be front-loading works, is truly astonishing to me. This passage is about as explicit concerning commitment to serve God as being part of coming to saving faith as I can think of.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-50506554207677548002014-03-19T18:43:03.008-07:002014-03-19T18:43:03.008-07:00Kent:
I think Dr. Ernest Pickering said it well a...Kent:<br /><br />I think Dr. Ernest Pickering said it well and with grace, in his review of MacArthur’s first edition of <i>The Gospel According to Jesus</i>, when he wrote,<br /><br />“<i> John MacArthur is a sincere servant of the Lord, of that we have no doubt.... We believe in his advocacy of the so-called lordship salvation <b>he is wrong</b>. He desperately desires to see holiness, lasting fruit, and continuing faithfulness in the lives of Christian people. This reviewer and we believe all sincere church leaders desire the same.... But the remedy for this condition is <b>not found in changing the terms of the gospel</b></i>.”<br /><br />MacArthur has changed, has corrupted the biblical plan of salvation. Men who come to embrace LS have had to force into or extract from the Bible things that are not there. <br /><br />Any man who teaches LS is frustrating the grace of God. He is as wrong on LS as JMac is wrong. No man, who believe LS is the gospel, cannot brush aside John MacArthur’s teaching on LS when his teachings on LS are brought into a discussion. More than any other man in evangelical circles JMac has defined the core beliefs of Lordship Salvation. You’ve staked out faith, plus commitment as a core belief you have. You wrote above, “<i>Imagine anyone believing in anything with no commitment, <b>and I mean up front</b></i>….” Faith, plus a commitment to the kind of behavior expected of a born again Christian to become a born again Christian is a theme that runs like a thread throughout MacArthur’s volumes. That is wrong!<br /><br />“<i>Salvation is either by God’s grace or by human effort, commitment, or work. It cannot be by both, anymore than law and grace were both means of salvation in Paul’s day.</i>” (Dr. Robert Lightner: <i>Sin, the Savior and Salvation</i>, p. 203)<br /><br />“<i>The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life cannot both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is a false gospel and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel (Gal. 1:6-9), and this is a very serious matter</i>.” (Dr. Charles Ryrie: <i>Balancing the Christian Life</i>, p. 170.)<br /><br />I am hopeful that, through the Holy Spirit’s guidance, many who have fallen into the trap of Lordship Salvation will be recovered from and repent of it.<br /><br />Kind regards,<br /><br /><br />LM<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-34776832323453342202014-03-19T16:22:26.959-07:002014-03-19T16:22:26.959-07:00Kent,
I did not realize that. Thanks for letting...Kent,<br /><br />I did not realize that. Thanks for letting me know.<br />I was dense enough to not see that until you explained<br />it to me. Maybe if you type slower....<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Jim CampJimCamp65https://www.blogger.com/profile/08293018820976464851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-32933046687544736732014-03-19T16:17:45.827-07:002014-03-19T16:17:45.827-07:00Bro. Ross,
Thanks for the response, I honestly ap...Bro. Ross,<br /><br />Thanks for the response, I honestly appreciate it. I'm sure you are very busy, & I appreciate your<br />time. <br /><br />Your first sentence stated that I was "trying to interact with God's Word". At first read, I <br />thought you were saying this in the manner we would down here in the Southwest - "you're TRYING to play football but you should take up knitting". I reread it, & your second & very last sentence clarified that this was not what you were saying. I spent an hour chuckling over my reactionary nature.<br /><br />The analogy concerning Strongs was a insightful. <br /><br />My main contention was the definition of the word. With faith & believe being so extensively used in the NT, the definition of the words are very important. You quoted several standard lexicons which all included some variant of our modern term "commit".<br /><br />So is that idea inherit in the word itself? Much like fire carries the idea of heat within it, as there is no cold fire.<br />I don't speak Greek, therefore I am at the mercy of the Strongs, Robertsons, & lexicons for any study into the original languages. But this is where I find a bit of disconnect - The root of the word means to convince, & the word "pistis" appears to mainly mean entrust/believe/depend.<br />So my question is, where did it morph into obey or become a follower? I understand that words<br />have varying shades, but this seems a long way from the source.<br /><br />Along similar lines, why not a different term, altogether? This was a spectacular argument that <br />was used here to establish local only ecclesiology. The word ecclesia doesn't carry a different idea (universal, invisible). It was a great point. Universal, invisible proponents must force their idea into the word, for it is not inherit in the word itself.<br />In similar fashion, does "pistis" & its variants carry the idea of obey or follow? If not, then why not a different word altogether (not suggesting changing Scripture, of course).<br /><br />As Always, thanks in advance.<br /><br />Jim Camp<br /><br /> JimCamp65https://www.blogger.com/profile/08293018820976464851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-65737040107404245852014-03-19T15:32:54.089-07:002014-03-19T15:32:54.089-07:00Jim Camp (there is a Jim Floyd up there),
You pro...Jim Camp (there is a Jim Floyd up there),<br /><br />You probably know that Lou and I are talking to each other through you, because Lou hasn't hardly talked to me here, but he talks to people to congratulate them for saying something different than my post.<br /><br />Thomas and I, differing than other blogs, do usually answer comments here. Not always, but way more than some other guys.<br /><br />I can look into a bigger comment list. We are at a rather more rapid pace here on this, because we're presently in the 80s.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-73435376356076252982014-03-19T15:27:23.304-07:002014-03-19T15:27:23.304-07:00Hello Kent,
Between you & Thomas, that is a ...Hello Kent, <br /><br />Between you & Thomas, that is a lot to deal with. In your comment, you asked me 2 direct questions (first sentence, last sentence), so let me start there.<br />1. I don't understand the question. It seems out of left field. Maybe I'm a bit dense today.<br /> I don't know if you are suggesting that my commitment to Scripture is so base that I dance a <br /> little jig every time someone agrees with me, of if you are suggesting that Lou is that big a<br /> influence in my beliefs? Again, I simply am not figuring out the question. That answer, of <br /> course, is no. <br /> Contrary wise, I did dance a jig that I said something so sharp, so intelligent that both you <br /> and Thomas responded! (this is a joke fellows, I'm just teasing)<br />2. The second answer is yes. I like to tell myself I am dispassionate. This is not about me, <br /> it is about the Lord & His Word. I think this second question is referring to the brief <br /> testimony I gave earlier. I was saved over 30 years ago & it does not frame my theology (not<br /> the salvation, but the mixed up teaching of the church I was at. Salvation hopefully has a<br /> serious effect upon my theology). <br /><br />I have been reading here for about 5 or 6 years. It has challenged me greatly to make dead certain that what I am telling people is actually / exactly what Scripture says, not just my opinion or some other guys opinion (Jer. 23:28). I am grateful for this influence in my life. <br /><br />Your last paragraph stated that a person can cherry pick or shop for definitions to support predisposed beliefs. This was simply not what I was doing. I was stating that the verses used<br />by Thomas to support the definition of "commit / committed" did not fit our common use of that term.<br />Moreover, I used Robertson as support for the translation of "intrust", with Strongs to back him up.<br />From my perspective, it was not me cherry picking, it was Thomas. I was hesitant to state this, <br />for it gets very persnickety at times in these discussions, & I have no bone to pick you fellows.<br /><br />Again, Thanks<br />Jim Camp <br /><br />PS - One major critique that has driven me nuts for quite some time. On the blog, the section for <br /> "recent comments" is 5 deep. often many comments will not be visible, & I have missed some good<br /> information, thereby. Is there no way to make that larger?<br /><br /><br /><br />JimCamp65https://www.blogger.com/profile/08293018820976464851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-25619699175345249072014-03-19T15:24:56.671-07:002014-03-19T15:24:56.671-07:00Lou,
Just because someone has "studied"...Lou,<br /><br />Just because someone has "studied" doesn't mean that he has reached the threshold of "study." Strong's Concordance is not a final word to me. Saying you've looked up all the passages doesn't do it for me. That doesn't mean that he hasn't studied, but based on only what he said, it doesn't meet what I believe is necessary. I appreciate your thinking I'm a fair man. But is what I'm teaching right? Is it what the Bible teaches?<br /><br />You saying "no commitment" and my saying "commitment" -- those two contradict. We're not both right. Even if I said you were fair, what does that do if you're wrong? And you are wrong on this, because faith includes commitment. No commitment is incomprehensible. And I'm wanting to be fair.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-2893214668775350132014-03-19T14:58:20.664-07:002014-03-19T14:58:20.664-07:00Kent:
You wrote to Jim, "If Lou says you'...Kent:<br /><br />You wrote to Jim, "<i>If Lou says you're right, do you think that means you're right</i>?"<br /><br />You're a fair man. Jim did indicate that he had arrived at his conclusion(s) through having done his own study. IMO, apart than that opening note to Jim, you were fair with him. <br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-640252679253849892014-03-19T12:39:00.148-07:002014-03-19T12:39:00.148-07:00Jim Camp,
If Lou says you're right, do you th...Jim Camp,<br /><br />If Lou says you're right, do you think that means you're right?<br /><br />If you take commitment out of belief, you don't have belief any more. Imagine anyone believing in anything with no commitment, and I mean up front, not coming to some commitment years in the future, who knows how long, after he has "believed." Belief is not assent to facts. It includes assent, but that's not all it is. If you believe in Jesus, and Jesus is Lord, Savior, and God, does that only mean that you could get that right as a test question. How many people in this country would get that right? If Jesus is Lord and you believe on Him, it means you want to do what He says. If you don't want to do what He says, how is that believing on Him? It isn't. <br /><br />I agree with Thomas. You can cherry-pick and find something very short that will give you "entrust," but it is lacking in curiosity of something that is very important or it is shopping for the definition that fits a predisposed belief. You've got to enter this with a dispassionate nature, like Paul when he was converted. He could count everything in the past as loss, even though his whole life was wrapped up in it. Could you say bye to your former view on this?Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-47459693894391416932014-03-18T21:27:14.828-07:002014-03-18T21:27:14.828-07:00Trusting Jesus Christ for the salvation of our sou...<br />Trusting Jesus Christ for the salvation of our soul is trusting Him<br />for salvation--and salvation is not just freedom from sin's penalty,<br />but also from its power. The sinner who wants to keep his sin but not<br />go to hell does not want the Savior. Telling the sinner this fact is<br />not somehow adding works to the way of salvation. There is no Biblical<br />basis whatsoever for hiding from the lost man that Jesus will free him<br />from the power of sin--all his sin--and if he doesn't want to be freed<br />from all his sin, he doesn't want Jesus. Lewis Sperry Chafer actually<br />said we are to hide from the lost man what is involved in the<br />Christian life--lead him to make a "salvation" (?) decision, and then<br />spring on him what he has just gotten into after the decision. This is<br />using the hidden things of dishonesty (2 Thess 2) and is not at all<br />what we see the Lord Jesus or the Apostles practicing. Christ preached<br />to the lost multitudes to deny themselves, take up the cross (point<br />actions), and follow (durative action, a result of the point action of<br />repentance/faith/denial/taking up) Him. Those who did not would lose<br />their souls in hell, Mark 8:34-36. The anti-Lordship position refuses<br />to let the Bible say what it says without interpreting its statements<br />through the trappings of a pre-conceived, non-exegetical system, a<br />system sprung from the fallible ideas of men, forcing into the<br />Scriptures things that are just not there (e. g., saved people lose<br />their souls??) to bolster their presuppositions. The Lord Jesus<br />preached to lost people: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that<br />heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting<br />life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death<br />unto life. . . . Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the<br />which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come<br />forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and<br />they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John<br />5:24, 28-29). An anti-Lordship person who didn't realize Jesus was the<br />One preaching would say that the preacher really blew it when He told<br />the lost that those who do good will receive life and those who do<br />evil will receive damnation (v. 28-29) right after saying eternal life<br />was by belief alone, v, 24. Christ told the lost that when they are<br />saved by faith alone (Jn 3:14-18) they will do good and want the light<br />instead of darkness (3:19-21). Many passages like these ones explain<br />why Baptist confessions reject the anti-Lordship position (apart from<br />the fact that it did not even exist when most of them were written).<br /><br />Thanks again for actually looking up passages, caring about what the<br />Bible says, and not just ignoring the oracles of the living God.KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-65566186028212803752014-03-18T21:27:00.280-07:002014-03-18T21:27:00.280-07:00Dear Jim,
Thanks for looking up the references an...Dear Jim,<br /><br />Thanks for looking up the references and trying to interact with God's<br />Word instead of just giving your opinion and ignoring what the Bible<br />actually says. That is commendable and the right way to go about<br />things.<br /><br />You are correct that "entrust" is prominent in the idea of the verb<br />"believe," pisteuo. "Commit to one's trust" and "entrust" are both<br />fine translations in many of the texts I mentioned. However, "entrust"<br />is not a different idea, because one is trusting in a Christ who is<br />both Lord and Ransomer for deliverance from both the penalty and power<br />of sin. One who does not want deliverance from the power of sin does<br />not want the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus is Savior from sin's power, not<br />its penalty only.<br /><br />The standard Greek lexicon, BDAG, on the verb pisteuo, def. #2,<br />states: "to entrust oneself to an entity in complete confidence,<br />believe (in), trust, with implication of TOTAL COMMITMENT to the one<br />who is trusted. In our literature God and Christ are objects of this<br />type of faith[.]" In the Louw-Nida Greek lexicon, pisteuo (31.102)<br />states: "to believe in the good news about Jesus Christ and to BECOME<br />A FOLLOWER." The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament lists<br />under pisteuo "pisteuo as to believe. . . to OBEY . . . to trust."<br /><br />Strong's Greek dictionary is not a good source, because it is far too<br />small. It is the difference between a one-word or one-phrase<br />definition and several pages (or, in TDNT, many pages) of categories<br />of usage with examples. Think the difference between a pocket English<br />dictionary and the Oxford English Dictionary. However, note that even<br />in Strong's "pistis" has as part of its definition "fidelity" or<br />faithfulness. Compare Habakkuk 2:4, where "the just shall live by his<br />faith," the key verse of both Habakkuk and Romans, employs a word for<br />"faith" that is translated "faithfulness" everywhere else in the OT,<br />because saving faith always produces faithfulness. See:<br /><br />http://faithsaves.net/the-just-shall-live-by-faith/<br /><br />for more. Also, remember that I gave evidence that "believe in/on" is<br />a Greek phrase for surrender or committment above, evidence that<br />nobody has touched with a ten-foot pole despite huge numbers of<br />comments.<br /><br />You stated: "Personally, this is one of my biggest problems with the<br />LS position, the SEEMING constant demand that salvation is not about<br />entrusting Jesus Christ for the salvation of our souls, but the<br />promise of dedication to Him."<br />KJB1611https://www.blogger.com/profile/09696273086955004524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-38849598303971959122014-03-18T13:36:31.017-07:002014-03-18T13:36:31.017-07:00Jim:
You wrote, “The point being that faith is ab...Jim:<br /><br />You wrote, “<i>The point being that faith is about trust, reliance upon, to believe upon</i>.”<br /><br />You have recognized and in succinct terms defined the content of the faith saves, the faith in the One who justifies the lost man. First year Bible College students are taught to let the Bible says what it says without interpreting those things through the trappings of logic. LS is a system sprung from the fallible logic of men, who among other ideas reject the Bible’s teaching of the carnal Christian. MacArthur actually rejects the two natures of saved men.<br /><br />LS teachers are unwilling to set aside the stringent logical demands of the LS system. Therefore, they try to <b>force into</b> or <b>extract from</b> the Scriptures things that are just not there to bolster their LS presuppositions. You’ve seen here that LS teachers front-load faith with demands for an upfront “<i>commitment</i>” to do the “<i>good works</i>” (<b>Eph. 2:10</b>) expected of a born again disciple of Christ to become a born again Christian. <br /><br />Thanks for posting your comment.<br /><br /><br />LM<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.com