tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post1887522815362288307..comments2023-12-22T08:29:29.230-08:00Comments on WHAT IS TRUTH: Where to Live, Life, and the Choice of a ChurchKent Brandenburghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-71574393183579345882015-07-09T14:07:14.030-07:002015-07-09T14:07:14.030-07:00Farmer wrote:
"You see a pastor romantically...Farmer wrote:<br /><br />"You see a pastor romantically embrace a woman who is not his wife, no other witnesses."<br /><br />Then you go to him personally and ask him what he was doing. He says, "Mind you own business". I will rebuke him to his face, and ask him to repent. He does not. I cannot accuse him before anyone (1 Timothy 5:19) else (that means to keep your mouth shut about the incident), but he knows NOW that a man of God has justly accused him and warned him, and his conscience will bear witness to that everytime he sees my face. If he continues in his pride, and the fear of the Lord does not trouble him, I believe the Lord will eventually do something about it (David comes to memory).The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-90000563094495360742015-07-09T13:52:02.300-07:002015-07-09T13:52:02.300-07:00Farmer said:
"George, Timothy is receiving t...Farmer said:<br /><br />"George, Timothy is receiving the accusation."<br /><br />Then if Timothy is receiving the accusation (in context, I agree) and if he is the Bishop of a local church (elder), then who is the THEM (any elder that sins rebuke- v20) that Paul is making reference to? Are they from other local churches? Are there more than one elder in the local church?<br /><br />Please explain.The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-31276745608002119362015-07-09T13:39:50.427-07:002015-07-09T13:39:50.427-07:00"Leaving, many times, is the easiest thing to..."Leaving, many times, is the easiest thing to do, but that does not mean it is the most Scriptural thing to do. Many times, I believe, the leadership needs to be held accountable to be Biblical in all they do. It is the Lord’s church and I think leadership forgets that sometimes."<br /><br />Amen. You must try to steer the body of Christ in the biblical direction, but if it is carnal, rebuke it and move on.<br /><br />The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-31903666644474572732015-07-08T21:00:35.838-07:002015-07-08T21:00:35.838-07:00George, Timothy is receiving the accusation.
Kent...George, Timothy is receiving the accusation.<br /><br />Kent and Dave, there are many situations where you can know the situation is completely wrong without being able to prove it per Deuteronomy 19:15. Typically, this happen when there is a cover up.<br /><br />Think Hophni and Phinehas, but modern, like Hyles and Gray. A pastor propositions your wife. No other witnesses. You see a pastor romantically embrace a woman who is not his wife, no other witnesses. You witness a pastor concealing egregious sin of another member, denying it ever took place. No witnesses. Confrontation is met with lying denials.<br /><br />In these cases, you have to go. In the Lord's name you are commanded to withdraw. However, no member of the church could hear your reasons without them disobeying 1 Tim 5:19. You just have to go.Farmer Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09637851494862726991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-50022046440752374642015-07-08T10:44:25.335-07:002015-07-08T10:44:25.335-07:00I really enjoyed this post. Having left a church ...I really enjoyed this post. Having left a church over doctrinal disagreement, I really appreciated the parts on how to leave. I can tell you that it is a decision that you can agonize over for a long time, because in some ways it seems that how this is handled might cause more harm than good. I must admit that this is refreshing, because as was referenced in the post, most pastors are going to think anyone leaving over doctrine must be wrong, and they are therefore wrong to attempt to leave.<br /><br />Similar to Farmer's point #4, I made the choice not to try to tell others in the church before I left (except the pastor). In hindsight, maybe that was the wrong thing to do, but since I saw this as a big deal, I wanted to err on the side of causing less division and strife in the church. The pastor already understood where we differed, as the result of many conversations over several years, but I did make a point of laying things out for him in a long letter.<br /><br />I did not try to keep my reasons for leaving secret, and anyone that came to me and asked about it, I told them. However, given the pastor had changed from holding a view very like mine to something else over a period of years, and that the people I really knew in the church were OK with that, I really didn't think it made much sense for me to try to convince anyone else, and again, the possibility of being a harmful divisive influence was forefront in my mind.<br /><br />Leaving a church is never easy, but I agree that life is short and what time we have shouldn't be wasted. Being in a good church is extremely important.Dave Barnhartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-52241618225214424172015-07-08T10:32:28.495-07:002015-07-08T10:32:28.495-07:00Kent wrote:
"Where is the "leave it to ...Kent wrote:<br /><br />"Where is the "leave it to the Lord" verse or passage?"<br /><br />Exactly. One must use discernment whether to leave or stay, but you must try to stop the "schism" before one decides to leave. A multitude of council would help to determine if the issue is real, especially when changes are occurring such as doctrine, music, dress, etc. that move away from biblical truth and precepts.<br /><br />The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-42987359699530038542015-07-08T10:26:51.118-07:002015-07-08T10:26:51.118-07:00Bro. Brandenburg – thank you for the post. It is ...Bro. Brandenburg – thank you for the post. It is timely and much needed. Our time is short here and we each have a responsibility to be a member of an obedient candlestick as the local church is the only vehicle for truth in this dispensation. <br /><br />“First, try to help the church change. Talk to the leadership. Present a scriptural way in the most peaceful way possible. If the leadership won't change, second, ask if the church will send you to another church for greater ministry.”<br /><br />I struggle with just leaving if leadership will not listen. (By leadership, I assume you mean pastors/elders in the assembly which excludes the faulty notion that a deacon is a leader.) It would seem that if the issue is truly a Scriptural error and not a preference, it is an offense and Mt 18 applies. The pastor is not above Mt 18. As you implied in an earlier posting, many church members are not doing their part to call out a pastor who is in violation of the qualifications he is expected to maintain. The situation regarding dismissive leadership you describe in your post here happens in many churches, and is due to a pastor that is no longer blameless and is clearly self-willed. I believe part of the reason why 2 or 3 witnesses are needed in approaching a pastor (1Ti 5:19) is because the event/teaching/position in question could disqualify him temporarily or permanently. <br /><br />It can be difficult to know when one should continue to confront leadership and when one should look for a way to leave. I think your statements about schisms in the body helps one discern what should be done. If the body as a whole is aligned with the leadership, then addressing leadership may not be enough to move the body back to a Scriptural path and leaving might be the best thing. Leaving, many times, is the easiest thing to do, but that does not mean it is the most Scriptural thing to do. Many times, I believe, the leadership needs to be held accountable to be Biblical in all they do. It is the Lord’s church and I think leadership forgets that sometimes. <br /><br />Regarding 1Ti 6:5, “from such withdraw thyself” – This is not in the critical text and is thus a doctrine under attack by Satan. Second, this verse appears to be instruction from Paul to Timothy, which means Timothy is expected to apply it. Since Paul told Timothy in 1Ti 1:3 to “charge some that they teach no other doctrine,” Timothy was not supposed to leave if the false teachers wouldn’t budge, but instead to discipline any unrepentant false teachers out.Mark Schaberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11032670252363618747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-72212639946598346672015-07-08T10:24:16.086-07:002015-07-08T10:24:16.086-07:00Farmer wrote:
"The Bible never gives an exam...Farmer wrote:<br /><br />"The Bible never gives an example of how to remove a wayward pastor, only how to remove yourself."<br /><br />Oh, on the contrary. Read 1 Timothy 5:17-20. Who is receiving this accusation in v19 and then doing the rebuking in v20 before all? If that man is a pastor, then there must be a presbytery that would receive those accusations, and if true, v20 is applied to the whole assembly.<br /><br />Regardless, there is no Pope amoungst the body of Christ that cannot be thrown out of the ministry. If it is proven that he sinned and then is rebuked before all and does not repent, throw him out of the church ( 1 Corinthians 5) and let another take his place.The Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555338497068482867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-20954973763746607002015-07-08T08:58:05.929-07:002015-07-08T08:58:05.929-07:00Michael,
It's true.Michael,<br /><br />It's true.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-18650803506538420142015-07-08T00:45:50.826-07:002015-07-08T00:45:50.826-07:001. What was going on where you were that you left...1. What was going on where you were that you left after 10 minutes? The pastor was sick that night, and had a Christian entertainer in. He was sick too, but in a different way.<br /><br />2. Can you please post the text of that (and any other) tract online? Yes, sometime.<br /><br />3. That's another good passage as a basis.<br /><br />4. How will the others know, when their leader won't tell them? Telling the leadership that you will let others know why you're leaving is something that you can say to the others when you tell them why you're leaving. They need to know what's wrong. Doesn't 1 Tim 5 among other places require recognition before all?<br /><br />What if you are one of the few who have observed the issues, and not everyone? Should you make those problems public? If there is only one witness, that isn't grounds, no, but two or three, and you've got a basis.<br /><br />Where is the "leave it to the Lord" verse or passage?<br /><br />5. Thanks.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-1864182383950269752015-07-07T19:22:09.265-07:002015-07-07T19:22:09.265-07:00Well said Pastor. No witty statement, just tears....Well said Pastor. No witty statement, just tears. Unfortunately things like this need to be said.Michael Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04118919400626682582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-19793134862342494562015-07-07T14:38:24.001-07:002015-07-07T14:38:24.001-07:00This is good, really good. I have a couple commen...This is good, really good. I have a couple comments and questions if you have the time:<br /><br />1. We have had that same frustrating experience travelling. We travel a lot, and finding a good church takes hours of research. Even then, sometimes you land someplace terrible. That is so frustrating and irritating. What was going on where you were that you left after 10 minutes?<br /><br />2. Can you please post the text of that (and any other) tract online? We write all our own tracts as well, but I would love to read that tract.<br /><br />3. I agree with the reason for leaving. The Bible never gives an example of how to remove a wayward pastor, only how to remove yourself. 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.<br /><br />This is the reason to leave. After you have tried to address the bad doctrine or practice, if the bad doctrine continues, it is disorderly. Not day one, or even month one, maybe not even year one, if the leadership is still willing to hear, but at some point it is disorderly.<br /><br />4. The one disagreement I have is telling others. Your problem is with the leadership. I am very uncomfortable taking a disagreement with leadership to others. They hear the same preaching and see the same errors. You take a lot of responsibility on yourself to try to guide those for whom you will not answer.<br /><br />What if you are one of the few who have observed the issues, and not everyone? Should you make those problems public? Proverbs 25:9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:<br /><br />You do not have to lie and say, "Everything is fine, but we are going a different direction", but you can tell people you cannot stay without revealing all the sordid details. As far as bringing the specifics forth, should a departing member do that, or leave that to the Lord? He can bring out those problems.<br /><br />5. You are so right that everything should follow church, not church follow everything. You move for church and find a job, not the other way around. Again, excellent article.<br />Farmer Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09637851494862726991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20213892.post-89402961958988569542015-07-07T12:44:58.428-07:002015-07-07T12:44:58.428-07:00I think this is one of the most important subjects...I think this is one of the most important subjects right now to think about, to consider with regards to your life.<br /><br />I understand that it is difficult. Pastors don't want people leaving their churches. I can say from my perspective that we keep everyone we were supposed to keep anyway. I'm not afraid of someone from our church reading this and thinking, hmmmmm, need to move somewhere to be in a biblical church. In the long run, it is good for our church people, because if they do want to move somewhere, they're going to consider first if there is a church there. Where we live is an area that a lot of a certain type of person does want to move out and it is a transient population. This isn't going to hurt you pastors, but there are people out there that need to hear it, because of they are really saved, and they stay somewhere that results in wood, hay, and stubble, they need to know about it.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.com