Friday, April 18, 2014

Bible Truths for Seventh-Day Adventists (SDA), part 7: SDA rejection of the Lord's Day for Saturday Sabbath Worship and its Teaching that Worship on the 1st Day is the Mark of the Beast

13.) The true church recognizes that the church and Israel are two different institutions. Not a single one of the 2,300 references to Israel in the Old and New Testaments equate Israel with the church, while the Jewish people are specifically distinguished from the church as two different entities (1 Cor 10:32). The Sabbath was a special sign for the Jewish nation (Ex 31:13, 17) that was first made known to Israel after the nation came out of Egypt (Neh 9:13-14; Eze 20:10-12). There is no proof whatsoever in the Bible that Abel, Noah, Job, Abraham, or any other godly person kept the Sabbath before the days Moses brought Israel out of Egypt. Indeed, Scripture specifically indicates that the covenant that included the Sabbath was not made with the patriarchs, but only with Israel in Moses’ day (Deut 5:3, 12-15). Salvation is not by a sinner’s obedience to the Sabbath or to the rest of the ten commandments, but by faith alone in Christ’s cross-work (Rom 3:28). The law condemns, not saves, which is why 2 Corinthians 3 explicitly states that what was written on “tables of stone” (v. 3), the ten commandments, were a “ministration of death, written and engraven in stones” (v.7), and are “done away” (v. 7, 11, 14) and “abolished” (v. 13).  The NT is clear that “the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners” (1 Tim 1:9). The law does not empower believers to live holy lives—they are holy because they are led by the Holy Spirit and are free from the law: “If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law . . . the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance” (Gal 5:18, 23). The NT explicitly states that the Sabbath was a type of the believer’s resting from his own works and trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. It contrasts entering into God’s rest by faith alone with the failure of the Jews to receive true Sabbath-rest, because they did not rest from their works and trust in the Messiah. People must cease from their works and enter into God’s true Sabbath-rest by faith in Christ: “For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest . . . there remaineth therefore a rest [Gk. sabbatismos] to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.[1] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief” (Heb 3-4). According to the New Testament, one who is resting from his works and trusting in Christ has entered the true rest every day of the week, while the SDA who is trusting in his Saturday worship and other works of the law to help earn or maintain salvation is actually rejecting the true rest Christ has purchased for His people![2] Because the Sabbath was a type or shadow fulfilled by Jesus Christ (Gal 4:4-10), the New Testament indicates that churches were no longer keeping it, and they were not to let anyone judge them for not doing so: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ” (Col 2:16-17).[3] If a Jewish convert to Christianity wished to continue to celebrate the Sabbath, the Passover, or any other Jewish festival day in his home, or wished to obey the Jewish dietary laws,[4] that was tolerable, because salvation is by grace through faith alone, not by Sabbath-observance, or any other works. However, none of the festivals was binding in any way on the Christian: “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks” (Rom 14:5-6).
         Since the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ and done away, it is not surprising that the principles of the other nine commandments are repeated in the NT, but the Sabbath is not.[5] Nor is it surprising that there are no examples in the New Testament anywhere of churches meeting for worship specifically on Saturday.[6] On occasion churches would meet every day of the week (Ac 2:47), but apart from such special events, every single example in the NT for church worship was on the first day of the week (Mt 28:8-10; Mr 16:1-2, 10-11; Lu 24:33-34; Jn 20:19-26; Ac 2; 20:7; 1 Cor 16:2). “[T]he first day of the week” was “when the disciples came together to break bread” in the Lord’s Supper (Ac 20:7)[7] and when the churches in different areas assembled week by week and took up the monetary “collection” (1 Cor 16:1-2),[8] because the first day of the week, when Christ rose from the grave (Mr 16:9), is the “Lord’s day” (Rev 1:10).[9]
         The idea that the Pope, using the force of the Roman government, changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday at some point after the union of Catholicism with the State, is total nonsense. Bible-believing churches do not say that Sunday is the Sabbath, but that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, and they reject the Pope and his many abominations.[10] Consider the following representative testimony of the very earliest documents of Christian history, written almost immediately after the completion of the NT:
[T]hose who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day, on which our life also arose through him and his death . . . At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead. (c. A. D. 107)[11]

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read . . . then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine . . . are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given. . . . Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because . . . Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. (c. A. D. 140)[12]
There were no Popes in A. D. 107, or for centuries afterwards. The pagan Roman government was not conspiring with Popes that did not exist to set up a Roman Catholic church-state with some sort of compulsory Sunday worship. Such ideas are fairy-tales.

Seventh-Day Adventism gets its Saturday worship from the “inspired” visions of Mrs. White, who testified that the fourth commandment was more important than the rest of the ten commandments, and that the pope had changed the Sabbath from Saturday to the first day of the week: “I saw . . . the ten commandments . . . the fourth, the Sabbath commandment . . . shone brighter . . . shone above them all . . . a halo of glory was all around it. . . . I saw that . . . the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week.[13]The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day. . . . He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the Decalogue.”[14] The Pope supposedly did this “[i]n the early part of the fourth century [after] the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. . . . The observance of Sunday . . . [is] a child of the papacy . . . [i]n the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians.”[15] Mrs. White’s visions are why the SDA denomination practice Saturday worship: “In . . . vision . . . [t]here was also shown her the change of the Sabbath, the significance of Sabbath, the significance of Sabbath observance, the work before them [the SDAs] in proclaiming the Sabbath truth . . . [and] its importance and its place in the third angel’s message[.][16] . . . Thus were confirmed by revelation . . . direct revelation . . . the conclusions in regard to the Sabbath[.]”[17] Indeed, one’s salvation or eternal damnation depends not on Christ alone, but on what day of the week he goes to church: “[T]he seal of God is . . . the seventh-day Sabbath[.] . . . The mark of the beast is the opposite of this—the observance of the first day of the week.”[18]Of all who receive this mark, God says, ‘The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone.’”[19]



[1]              Note the reference back to Genesis 2:2-3. God’s resting in Genesis (an event not written down, as far as we know, until Moses’ day), pointed forward to the coming salvation-rest in Christ. What is more, when SDAs argue that the seventh-day Sabbath is a creation ordinance and is therefore binding on the church, they miss the fact that the church is not an institution that pertains to this world and the old creation, but to the new creation, the New Jerusalem and the world to come (cf. Col 3:10; 2 Cor 5:17; Rev 21:1; Tit 3:5 & Mt 19:28).
[2]              For more information on the teaching of Hebrews 3-4 and the Saturday Sabbath, please read “Does Hebrews 4:9 Establish that New Testament Churches Need to Worship on Saturday?” at http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/.
[3]              For further proof that this passage specifically indicates that the Saturday Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ, see “Colossians 2:16-17:  The Sabbath Fulfilled in Christ” at http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/.
[4]              Note that Mrs. White taught that vegetarianism helps to bring salvation: “Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord . . . flesh will cease to form a part of their diet . . . Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods, tea, and coffee . . . will not continue to indulge their appetite . . . a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people. . . . [M]eat eating . . . endanger[s] the physical, mental, and spiritual health. . . . Even milk will have to be discarded” (pgs. 380-384, Counsels on Diet and Foods, Ellen White). In contrast, God’s Word teaches that being a vegetarian or eating flesh is not a spiritual issue: “But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse” (1 Cor 8:6). Indeed, the spiritually “weak eateth herbs” only and thinks that it assists him draw closer to God (Rom 14:2; cf. 1 Cor 10:25; 1Ti 4:4; Tit 1:15; Heb 9:10, 13:9).
[5]              1st Commandment (1 Tim 2:5); 2nd (1 Cor 10:7); 3rd (Jam 5:12); 4th (nowhere); 5th (Eph 6:2); 6th (1 Jn 3:15); 7th (Heb 13:4); 8th (Eph 4:28); 9th (Col 3:9); 10th (Eph 5:3).
[6]              Indeed, the fact that Paul and his company regularly took the opportunity on the Sabbath to go to the synagogues to evangelize unbelieving Jews and Gentiles there (Ac 13:13-14, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4) shows that the churches did not meet on Saturday. Godly leaders in the apostolic churches did not skip church week after week to go to synagogues instead. They evangelized in the synagogues on Saturday and assembled for Christian worship on the first day of the week.
[7]              For further examination of Acts 20:7, see “Acts 20:7 and Worship on the First Day of the Week” at http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/.
[8]              For further examination of 1 Cor 16:1-2, see “1 Corinthians 16:2 and Church on the First Day of the Week” at http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/.
[9]              Considering “every ecclesiastical writer for the first five centuries . . . sabbaton [Sabbath] is never used by them for the first day, [and] Kuriake [the Lord’s Day] is never used by them for the seventh day” (pg. 505, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, John McClintock & James Strong, vol. 5).
[10]            For an examination of the fearful errors of Roman Catholicism, see: “Bible Truths for Catholic Friends” at http://faithsaves.net/different-religions/.
[11]             Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 9:1 & Epistle to the Trallians, ch. 9.
[12]            Apology I:67, Justin Martyr.
[13]             Pg. 32, Early Writings, Ellen White.
[14]             Pg. 65, Early Writings, Ellen White. Mrs. White and the SDA denomination are very reluctant to answer the questions: “Which Pope changed the Sabbath? What was his name, what year did he do this, and where is his decree doing so?” Such questions cannot be answered effectively because Christians worshipped on the first day of the week from the very beginning, far, far before there were any Popes. Consequently, statements about what “the [unnamed] Pope” did in supposedly changing the Sabbath must be left vague.
[15]            Pgs. 52-53, The Great Controversy, Ellen White.
[16]            According to the SDA denomination, Revelation 14:9-11 does not mean exactly what it says, but rather “the third angel . . . represents the people who receive th[e] message . . . [of] embrac[ing] the Sabbath” (pg. 77, Testimonies, vol. 1, Ellen White).
[17]            Letter to Joseph Bates, April 7, 1847, Ellen White;  see Ellen G. White:  Messenger to the Remnant, Arthur L. White.
[18]            Pg. 232, Testimony Treasures, vol. 3, Ellen White.
[19]            “God’s Holy Sabbath,” Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 1897, Ellen White.

17 comments:

KJB1611 said...

Note also the resources on the Sabbath and the Lord's Day here:

http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/

Berean said...

Dear kjb1611,

1. The Sabbath was given at Creation 2,000 years before the first Jew: Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God... For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

We note here the words "made," "rested," "blessed,"hallowed," all related to Creation week.

2. Jesus and Paul worshiped God every Sabbath (Luke 4:16; Acts 17:2).

4. Heb 4:9 says that there remains for the people of God a keeping of the Sabbath, a sabbatismos. Sabbatismos is a Greek noun that means "to keep the Sabbath."

5, Luke 23:56 tells us that the first Sabbath after the crucifixion (i.e. the first Sabbath that supposedly was abolished) was still a Sabbath!

5. Until the last days, God's people will keep the commandments of God (Rev 12:17). It also says that those who do not keep the commandments will not enter the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:14).

6. The saved in the new heavens and new earth will keep the Sabbath (Isa 66:23).

7. There is not one text that places any special status on Sunday, the day of the Sun.

8. You say the 10C are abolished. Other Baptists say they stand (e.g. http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=16785). Which is it?

Beyond that:

You state that Adventists get the Sabbath from Ellen White. This is a blatant lie! Adventists were introduced to the Sabbath by a Seventh-Day Baptist lady, Rachel Oakes. EW was one of the last leaders to accept the Sabbath. Ask 1,000 Adventists to give you one EW reference to the Sabbath and 995 will not be able to. Ask them where they get the Sabbath and all 1,000 will point you to Creation and the 10 Commandments.

It is sad that you have to resort to lies to accuse others.

Peace

KJB1611 said...

Dear SDA Friend,

Thanks for the comment.


It is hard to take you seriously when you argue that Sunday is the "day of the Sun" and so, implicitly, is pagan and should be rejected. Saturday is the Day of Saturn, and every day of the week is named after a pagan god. Please either explain why your "Day of the Sun" reference shows that the 1st day of the week is inappropriate for Christian worship, or if you cannot do this, please admit that it was totally irrelevant.


You might want to study a bit harder before citing in your argument:

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=16785

as that is a spoof of Baptists made by anti-Christians.

I'm sorry, but your "Day of the Sun" and landover "Baptist" citations make you very difficult to take seriously.

I worship God every Sabbath also, and every other day of the week. Also, you are correct that the Sabbath is Saturday (should I add, "the Day of Saturn")?

Believers do keep God's commands. You are correct. What I think you mean by this is that people who don't go to church on Saturday won't enter the New Jerusalem. In this you are very, very wrong.

KJB1611 said...


Is 66:23 is talking about the Millenial Kingdom when Christ will reign from Jerusalem, there will be a restored temple with sacrifices (Eze 40-48), etc. People will keep the Sabbath and the Feast of Tabernacles. The eternal state is actually all rest, not just one day a week. The Millenial kingdom is a new heaven and earth in that it is new in every part, but it is not new to the utmost extent, as in regeneration the Christian is new in every part, but not new to the utmost extent as he will be in glory. Compare the analysis of Matthew 19:28 in "The Nature of Vivification" at http://faithsaves.net/soteriology/.

Hebrews 3-4 is actually very clear that the NT application of Sabbath keeping is believing in Christ and entering into rest by faith in Him. It is impossible to draw the conclusion that the sabbatismos of Hebrews 4:9 is Saturday-wrorship without obliterating the context. Please see the study of Hebrews 4:9 here:

http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/

and refute it, while also showing how your view makes sense of the context.

The relation of the law and gospel is also clearly set forth here:

http://faithsaves.net/the-sabbath-saturday/

Scripture teaches that the OT is fulfilled in Christ and it applies as fulfilled.

Mrs. White taught:

“I saw . . . the ten commandments . . . the fourth, the Sabbath commandment . . . shone brighter . . . shone above them all . . . a halo of glory was all around it. . . . I saw that . . . the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week.” “The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day. . . . He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the Decalogue.”[14] The Pope supposedly did this “[i]n the early part of the fourth century [after] the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. . . . The observance of Sunday . . . [is] a child of the papacy . . . [i]n the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians.”[15] Mrs. White’s visions are why the SDA denomination practice Saturday worship: “In . . . vision . . . [t]here was also shown her the change of the Sabbath, the significance of Sabbath, the significance of Sabbath observance, the work before them [the SDAs] in proclaiming the Sabbath truth . . . [and] its importance and its place in the third angel’s message[.][16] . . . Thus were confirmed by revelation . . . direct revelation . . . the conclusions in regard to the Sabbath[.]”[17]

Please prove from Scripture that the 4th commandment is better than the first three and all the rest of them. Also, please explain why when EGW says she got her Sabbath ideas confirmed by revelation in vision she really didn't have her ideas "confirmed by revelation . . . direct revelation." Unless you can do that, just perhaps it would be well not to accuse me of lying when I stated that the SDA doctrine comes from EGW. Obviously there were Sabbatarians who lived before EGW, although Seventh-Day Baptists do not believe the SDA heresies and false gospel about the Sabbath determining people's salvation or damnation, etc. While 7th Day Baptists are wrong on the NT pattern for church worship, I will rejoice to see many Seventh-Day Baptists in heaven. They also do not add the "inspired" writings of EGW, 100,000 pages of them, to the 1,000 pages of God's Word, the Bible, nor do they claim that they worship on Saturday because of "direct revelation" to EGW.

Finally, please let me know what the name of the pope was in the 4th century, and when he decreed 1st day worship, so that before that time in the 4th century no Christians worshipped the 1st day of the week, or if you cannot do this, please admit it is a gross and blatant error in EGW's "inspired" (?) writings.

Thanks.

Berean said...

My dear friend,

1. It is interesting how you bypass most of the texts mentioned and instead seem offended by my reference to Sunday as Sun-day. I didn't realize the day had such significance for you. Strange for a day that has no special status in Scripture, but is referred to in the original Greek as "mia savvaton," i.e. "first day towards the Sabbath."

2. It is also worrying that you bypass the lie I pointed out. You have in the past apologized for much smaller things, but you do not want to do the same about a blatant lie in a public forum.

3. You say that the Sabbath of Isaiah 66:23 is about the millennial kingdom. It is actually about the new heavens and the new earth (Isaiah 66:22). Now, if you turn to Rev 21:1-4, the new heavens and the new earth come AFTER the millennium and last for eternity. Throughout eternity the Sabbath will be Sabbath.

4. Since the "landover" cite is a spoof (who would do something so silly???) here are some other Baptist comments about the 10C.

http://www.foundationbaptist.org/commandents.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/21/ten-commandments-or-promises/22103521/

http://www.fellowshipbaptistwestville.com/index.php/the-10-commanments-a-you.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/megachurch-pastor-perry-noble-rebuked-by-southern-baptists-for-calling-10-commandments-10-promises-132967/

So which is it? 10 commandments? 9 Commandments? No commandments? Whatever suits according to the occasion? For you, probably the latest.

5. Lastly, in Heb 4, resting from works is katapausis. Sabbatismos is the noun form of sabbatizo, and means "to keep the Sabbath." "There remains therefore keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God" (Heb 4:9 - literal reading of Scripture).

Peace

KJB1611 said...

Dear SDA Friend,

Instead of speculating about my motives or about my being offended because I called you out on the "Sun day" non-argument, why not actually answer the question? Here it is again:

It is hard to take you seriously when you argue that Sunday is the "day of the Sun" and so, implicitly, is pagan and should be rejected. Saturday is the Day of Saturn, and every day of the week is named after a pagan god. Please either explain why your "Day of the Sun" reference shows that the 1st day of the week is inappropriate for Christian worship, or if you cannot do this, please admit that it was totally irrelevant.

Please either admit it is irrelevant or prove its relevance instead of speculating about my motives.

Instead of essentially repeating what you had said above about sabbatismos, please do what I asked already:

Hebrews 3-4 is actually very clear that the NT application of Sabbath keeping is believing in Christ and entering into rest by faith in Him. It is impossible to draw the conclusion that the sabbatismos of Hebrews 4:9 is Saturday-wrorship without obliterating the context. Please see the study of Hebrews 4:9 here:

http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/

and refute it, while also showing how your view makes sense of the context.

Your view of Hebrews 4:8 obliterates the context, in which Paul clearly teaches that the NT sabbath-rest is entered by faith by all the people of God. Thus, I am keeping the Sabbath now on Monday and will enjoy eternal Sabbath-rest forever.

Please deal with what I already said about Is 66:23. Did you look at the link I gave? Perhaps if you didn't, you didn't get what I was saying. I will explain it more if you do not understand, but please look at the parallel between personal and cosmic regeneration as it will help you see what I'm saying. The Millenial heaven and earth are new, just as I am new as a born-again Christian (Tit 3:5; Mt 19:28; 2 Cor 5:17), but I am not new to the ultimate extent, as I will be when glorified and as the heaven and earth will be in the eternal state.

Is 66 is clearly Millenial:

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

There are no priests and Levites, no new moons, no offerings in the Temple at Jerusalem, etc. in the eternal state. For that matter, there are no Saturday Sabbaths either--the eternal state will be all rest. Are the Millenial heaven and earth new? Yes-there are radical changes so that the animals will all be vegetarian, etc, Is 11. Are they the totally and ultimately new heaven and earth of the eternal state? No.

KJB1611 said...


Instead of simply saying that I am engaging in a "blatant lie," why not show that your allegedly inspired prophetess did not mean it when she said that she got the Sabbath doctrine confirmed by direct revelation? Can you show that she didn't mean what she said in the quotes I gave above? If you cannot do this, perhaps your statement that I am blatantly lying is slander, not fact. I am not saying that she did not think she had Scriptural support for it. Mormons think that doctrine Joseph Smith got from demonic revelations is in the Bible. Word-Faith extreme charismatics think that crazy ideas they got from visions are really taught in the Bible. Roman Catholics think that ideas they got from visions of demons impersonating Mary are really taught in the Bible. Of course EGW thought that the Bible and her visions agreed. That does not change what she said about "direct revelation" giving her confirmation of Adventist Sabbath doctrine, replacing the Holy Spirit as the seal of God with church on the right day of the week, etc.

I answered your 10 Commandments question here:

http://faithsaves.net/the-sabbath-saturday/

please deal with my answer. Thanks.

If your Sabbath doctrine is really from the Bible, not EGW, then please prove from Scripture that the 4th commandment is better than the first three and all the rest of them.

Finally, please let me know what the name of the pope was in the 4th century, and when he decreed 1st day worship, so that before that time in the 4th century no Christians worshipped the 1st day of the week, or if you cannot do this, please admit it is a gross and blatant error in EGW's "inspired" (?) writings.

Thanks.

Berean said...

My dear friend,

I hope you are having a good day.

1. Sunday means day of the sun. Everybody knows this. The reason why it is not a special but a pagan day, is because the Bible does not make it a special day; but for pagans it was, the day of the sun, dies solis. If you think there is any Bible text that declares Sunday to be a special day, let us discuss it.

Saturday was, as you have correctly pointed out, the day of Saturn for pagans. What you call Saturday, we call Sabbath, in line with the language of the Bible.

2. Rev 21 clearly applies the new heavens and new earth to eternity. The Sabbath is going to be celebrated throughout eternity. It is a beautiful thing too, for the Sabbath was intended from the beginning to be a delight, and to a true Sabbath keeper, it is. So nothing more fitting than to continue celebrating it throughout eternity.

The fact that it will continue to celebrated, obviously means that it has not been abolished.

3. We have already established of course that Exod 20:8-11 indicates that the Sabbath was given at Creation.

4. You direct us to read your posts on faith-saves (it is actually Christ that saves, not human faith) and your article about the Sabbath. I am sorry, but no thank you. I did the mistake to read it once. 30,000 words to tell us that the literal meaning of Scripture is that the Sabbath was not given at Creation. If it is such a literal and plain reading of Scripture, why does it take you 30,000 words to explain it? If you cannot make a case in a few dozen words, then it is probably not worth making.

By contrast, the 4th commandment ties the Sabbath to Creation in 35 simple words (NKJ). Beautiful. If we put our prejudices aside and accept the simple meaning of Scripture, we will be free.

5. Sabbatismos, the noun form of the verb sabbatizo, which means to keep the Sabbath, is used to mean exactly what it means. I cannot understand how some argue that Paul used a word that means something very clearly and very consistently (to keep the Sabbath), to mean something completely different (salvation rest), when there is another word in that very passage (katapausis) which means exactly this salvation rest. Katapausis means salvation rest; sabbatismos means to the keeping of the Sabbath.

6. If you have not lied, demonstrate your truth. Otherwise, just say sorry and we will be glad to forgive and forget. Your lie is not about whether EW had a vision about the Sabbath or not; it is about where Adventists get the Sabbath from. The answer is, the Bible.

7. Lastly, you demonstrate an unhealthy fascination with EW, more than I have ever seen in the Adventist church. She keeps coming up in every discussion, especially when you seem to be stuck for Biblical evidence. Bible doctrine is Bible doctrine so lets discuss the Bible. There is another post about EW, so any comments about her prophetic ministry can be dealt with there. Let us not mix things up.

Best wishes

Thomas Ross said...

Dear SDA Friend,

You have not answered:

Instead of speculating about my motives or about my being offended because I called you out on the "Sun day" non-argument, why not actually answer the question? Here it is again:

It is hard to take you seriously when you argue that Sunday is the "day of the Sun" and so, implicitly, is pagan and should be rejected. Saturday is the Day of Saturn, and every day of the week is named after a pagan god. Please either explain why your "Day of the Sun" reference shows that the 1st day of the week is inappropriate for Christian worship, or if you cannot do this, please admit that it was totally irrelevant.

Please either admit it is irrelevant or prove its relevance instead of speculating about my motives.

Instead of answering it, you ask me to prove that it is a "special day," some kind of Christian Sabbath, which is not Biblical and not what the Bible teaches and we believe.

You also said:

Saturday was, as you have correctly pointed out, the day of Saturn for pagans. What you call Saturday, we call Sabbath, in line with the language of the Bible.

So you never use the word "Saturday"? I can say this:

Sunday was, as you have correctly pointed out, the day of the Sun for pagans. What you call Sunday, we call the first day of the week, in line with the language of the Bible.

Your whole "Sunday is the day of the Sun so 1st day worship is pagan" argument is silly. Will you be humble and admit it, or double down on it?

2.) You ignored everything I said about Isaiah 66. Perhaps this is because in relation to something else I wrote you stated: "I did [sic] the mistake to read it once." If reading what I write is a mistake, why are you even commenting here?

3.) I asked before:

Instead of essentially repeating what you had said above about sabbatismos, please do what I asked already:

Hebrews 3-4 is actually very clear that the NT application of Sabbath keeping is believing in Christ and entering into rest by faith in Him. It is impossible to draw the conclusion that the sabbatismos of Hebrews 4:9 is Saturday-wrorship without obliterating the context. Please see the study of Hebrews 4:9 here:

http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventism-and-saturday-sabbath-keeping/

and refute it, while also showing how your view makes sense of the context.

Thomas Ross said...

Your view of Hebrews 4:8 obliterates the context, in which Paul clearly teaches that the NT sabbath-rest is entered by faith by all the people of God. Thus, I am keeping the Sabbath now on Monday and will enjoy eternal Sabbath-rest forever.


You didn't deal with anything I said. Saying "sabbatismos means what it says" is not an argument. I believe it means what it says, and what it says is what Paul meant when he wrote Hebrews 3-4, not what you are saying it means. Why not prove that your view fits the context of Hebrews 3-4, rather than being obliterated by the context?

Here are some reasons why your view of Hebrews 4:8 is impossible (from http://faithsaves.net/sabbath/):

Thus, the New Testament is clear that God’s rest on the seventh day of creation points forward to that rest in Christ entered into by faith and prepared for the elect people of God from the foundation of the world. This salvation-rest is the true Sabbath-observance or sabbatismos (sabbatismo/ß)[88] of New Testament saints (Hebrews 4:9). This is the rest which all who trust in Christ alone enter into (Hebrews 4:3), while those who rest every Saturday, but do not trust in the Messiah,[89] have never and will never enter into that rest but will suffer everlastingly under God’s wrath (Hebrews 4:7-8). The death penalty prescribed in the Old Testament for not keeping the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2) in the Messianic New Testament era of fulfillment represents the everlasting spiritual death of those who fail to believe on Christ and so come short of His promised rest (Hebrews 4:1-11; cf. Matthew 11:28-30). Genesis 2:1-3, for those partaking of the inaugurated although not fully realized new creation in Christ, binds Christian practice not in the manner the Old Testament connected it with the practice of Israel but in the way the New Testament connects it to the practice of the church. The New Testament, in its only quotation from Genesis 2:1-3 in Hebrews 4:4,[90] affirms that the creation rest of God and the Sabbath rest of the Old Testament point to the eschatological salvation-rest Christian saints have in union with Jesus Christ. Therefore, the abiding binding significance of the Old Testament Sabbath ordinance in the New Testament age is to rest in Christ for salvation and so enter into the rest of His coming earthly kingdom and His eternal rest in the New Jerusalem following the Millennium. The requirement to celebrate a seventh-day holy festival is gone, swallowed up with the old age through the coming of Christ.

Thomas & Heather Ross said...

Clearly, the New Testament explicates in Hebrews 3-4[91] a theme already found in the Old Testament theme of rest—God’s rest in Genesis 2:1-3 points forward to the eschatological rest He has prepared for His people.[92] The Sabbath was an eschatological, proleptic sign of future rest; God’s creative activities flowed into a universal rest period. Man was the climactic creation on day six, and the rest of the seventh day was God’s rest, a rest in which He intended man to participate. God did not rest on the seventh day for His own benefit (cf.John 5:17), but to offer man His own rest, a rest the race possessed before the Fall, lost through Adam’s transgression, and has restored to it through Christ’s redemption. Through Christ believers enter into rest now by coming into saving union with Him, and through Christ their ultimate entry is secured into the eternal rest of the people of God. Israel was to learn from the fact that the seventh day of creation does not have an “evening and morning” attached to it that God’s promise of rest is perpetually offered to men through the Messiah. God created man the sixth day, gave him specific commands in 1:28, but did not command man to enter into His rest on the seventh day because, in his unfallen condition, he already participated in that Divine rest. The purpose of God’s perfect creation, described in days one through six, is for that creation to possess rest in fellowship with God its Creator. Redeemed creation will do so eternally, and saints possess that rest in part now in Christ, and will possess it in full in the consummated new creation. Furthermore, since the seventh-day rest of God at the end of the completed creation was designed for man, even after the Fall God would work for man to be able to participate in it; hence the book of Hebrews draws the conclusion that from the foundation of the world God’s rest was offered to men (Hebrews 4:4-10). Before Christ the saints had that rest secured to them by faith (Hebrews 4:4-7; 11), and so in the dispensation of grace those who believe, not those who turn from Christ back to Judaism and take the yoke of bondage of the Sabbath and the law, are those who enter into God’s eschatological rest.

Thomas & Heather Ross said...

Israel recognized “the world that is to come” as “wholly Sabbath rest for eternity,”[93] the “Sabbath of the future bliss,”[94] “the day which is wholly Sabbath (rest), in which there is no eating or drinking, buying or selling; but the righteous will sit there with crowns on their heads and delight in the radiance of the shekhina [glory of God].”[95] Westcott notes:

The Jewish teachers dwelt much upon the symbolical meaning of the Sabbath as prefiguring “the world to come.” . . . [For example]: “The people of Israel said: Lord of the whole world, shew us the world to come. God, blessed be He, answered: Such a pattern is the Sabbath” (Jalk. Rub. p. 95, 4). In this connexion the double ground which is given for the observance of the Sabbath, the rest of God (Ex. 20:11) and the deliverance from Egypt (Deut. 5:15), finds its spiritual confirmation. The final rest of man answers to the idea of Creation realized after the Fall by Redemption.[96]

Paul identifies God’s rest eschatologically in Hebrews 3-4 in keeping with this correct interpretation of the Old Testament data regarding God’s rest. The sabbatismos that remains for the people of God is the salvation-rest that is entered into by those who believe. They currently by faith have rest in Jesus Christ, having come to Him and received rest from Him (Matthew 11:28-30),[97] and they have a certain future rest when the kingdom of God is ultimately established at Christ’s second coming, after which they will possess millennial and then eternal rest in the New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-24) with the Old Testament saints who believed to the saving of their souls and consequently manifested their faith by perseverance (Hebrews 10:38-12:2). That is, the Apostle’s point in Hebrews 3:7-4:13 is that “we which have believed do enter into rest” (Hebrews 4:3), that rest that remains to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9). Genesis 2:1-3, as interpreted by the infallible text of the book of Hebrews, teaches that people in the church age need to enter into God’s rest by believing on Jesus Christ.

Thomas & Heather Ross said...

Consequently, the sabbatismos for the church in the Messianic age is not Saturday worship but “the eternal sabbath celebration of salvation.”[98] To conclude from Hebrews 4:9 that the Jewish Saturday Sabbath festival is binding on the New Testament church is to radically misread the passage, which does not have a specific day in view.[99] First, if Paul had intended to say that the Sabbath festival remained for the church to observe, he would have used the actual word Sabbath (sa¿bbaton). By either newly coining or adopting the extremely rare word sabbatismos (sabbatismo/ß) instead and identifying the sabbatismos with God’s “rest” (katapausis, kata¿pausiß)[100] into which believers enter by faith, the Apostle clearly indicated that an antitypical salvation-rest, not a Saturday festival day, remained for the New Testament church. The actual word Sabbathappears sixty-eight times in the New Testament.[101] Paul could have easily stated: “The Sabbath festival remains for the people of God,” but he did not. On the contrary, he specified that the Sabbath was a “shadow” and a type of Christ that is now done away (Colossians 2:16-17). Second, the “rest,” the katapausis or sabbatismosthat Paul speaks of in Hebrews 3:7-4:13, was not entered into by unsaved Jews who kept the Sabbath in the wilderness (Hebrews 4:5; Psalm 95:7-11).[102] If people who kept the Jewish Sabbath nevertheless never entered into the rest or sabbatismos of which Paul speaks, clearly the sabbatismos is not the celebration of the Saturday holy day. Third, having a hard heart keeps one from entering into the “rest” under consideration (Hebrews 4:7-8). Many Jews keep the Sabbath and many in Christendom worship on the Lord’s Day while still possessing hard hearts, so the adoption of a specific day of worship cannot be the rest in question. Fourth, thesabbatismos is not entered into by bringing Judaism’s Sabbath into the church, but by believing the preached gospel: “Unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest” (Hebrews 4:2-3). On the other hand, “they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief” (4:6), despite celebrating the Saturday Sabbath. Since one enters into the sabbatismos “rest” in Hebrews 3-4 by faith, and one fails to enter into it by unbelief, the sabbatismos is self-evidently the salvation-rest possessed by all the true people of God, not a Jewish festival transferred into the church age. Fifth, the use of the Greek aorist for those who “have believed . . . entering” the rest (Hebrews 4:1, 3)[103] demonstrates that the rest is entered at one point in time.[104] The eschatological rest is entered into at the point of faith, and its final consummation is entered into at the point of eternal glory. The point action described is not what one would expect were the restthat is to be entered a recurring festival-day that one is to practice over and over again on successive weeks.[105] Sixth, a warning that one can “seem to come short” of “entering into [God’s] rest” (Hebrews 4:1) is reasonable if salvation-rest is in view, and professing Hebrew Christians needed to examine themselves to be sure that they were genuinely converted and were manifesting perseverance in the faith.

Thomas & Heather Ross said...

It is difficult to makeHebrews 4:1 mean anything that fits the context if the rest is forced to refer to the Saturday Sabbath. Seventh, Jews who had knowledge of truths about Jesus Christ, but were considering turning from Him back to Judaism, which would manifest an unregenerate state, were the subject of this warning passage in Hebrews (3:7-4:13), along with the other warning passages in the epistle (Hebrews 2:1-4; 6:4-12; 10:26-39; 12:25-29). These Jews were exhorted to diligent care[106] to truly believe and persevere (Hebrews 4:11), to “take pains” and “make every effort,”[107] to “give diligence[108] to make [their] calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10) in order that they might enter God’s presence and eternal rest rather than “fall[ing] after the . . . example of unbelief” manifested by the wilderness generation in Moses’ day (Hebrews 4:11). They needed to be sure to “believe to the saving of the soul” instead of “draw[ing] back unto perdition” (Hebrews 10:39). If they apostatized and returned to post-Christian Judaism they would be keeping the Sabbath with the other Jews. A warning to not return to Judaism but to cleave to Christ in persevering faith and so enter into His salvation-rest, the antitype of the Old Testament Sabbath type, clearly fits the context and makes sense of the passage. The Christian Hebrews were not to reject the antitype of Christ’s salvation-rest for the Saturday Sabbath type and the remainder of the Law that had passed away. Hebrews 4:11 is unintelligible on the notion that the Apostle is exhorting the audience of Hebrews to maintain Saturday worship in common with the Jews to whom Paul is exhorting them not to return. The conclusion is clear: Hebrews 3:7-4:13 by no means establishes that the Jewish Sabbath festival is binding for the New Testament church. On the contrary, the passage indicates that the Sabbath was a type fulfilled in Christ, and now the antitype, salvation-rest in union with the Lord Jesus, must be entered into by faith, not by practicing the ceremonies of a Judaism that is no longer pleasing to God.

Thomas & Heather Ross said...

Thjird, you said "If you have not lied, demonstrate your truth" about EGW and the Sabbath. Perhaps you can say I didn't demonstrate it because you think that reading what I write is a mistake: "I did [sic] the mistake to read it once." If you do read what I write, I have given you the proof several times now and you have ignored it. Here it is again, from the post above--not a single passage of which you have said a word about:

Mrs. White taught:

“I saw . . . the ten commandments . . . the fourth, the Sabbath commandment . . . shone brighter . . . shone above them all . . . a halo of glory was all around it. . . . I saw that . . . the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week.” “The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day. . . . He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the Decalogue.”[14] The Pope supposedly did this “[i]n the early part of the fourth century [after] the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. . . . The observance of Sunday . . . [is] a child of the papacy . . . [i]n the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians.”[15] Mrs. White’s visions are why the SDA denomination practice Saturday worship: “In . . . vision . . . [t]here was also shown her the change of the Sabbath, the significance of Sabbath, the significance of Sabbath observance, the work before them [the SDAs] in proclaiming the Sabbath truth . . . [and] its importance and its place in the third angel’s message[.][16] . . . Thus were confirmed by revelation . . . direct revelation . . . the conclusions in regard to the Sabbath[.]”[17]

The fact that your doctrine of the Sabbath comes from EGW is evident because you believe the following things that cannot be proven from the Bible. Please prove from Scripture that the 4th commandment is better than the first three and all the rest of them. Also, please explain why when EGW says she got her Sabbath ideas confirmed by revelation in vision she really didn't have her ideas "confirmed by revelation . . . direct revelation." Please let me know what the name of the pope was in the 4th century, and when he decreed 1st day worship, so that before that time in the 4th century no Christians worshipped the 1st day of the week, or if you cannot do this, please admit it is a gross and blatant error in EGW's "inspired" (?) writings.

Thomas & Heather Ross said...

Finally, you say:

Lastly, you demonstrate an unhealthy fascination with EW, more than I have ever seen in the Adventist church. She keeps coming up in every discussion,

Adventist friend, you know perfectly well that EGW is quoted just like Scripture in Adventist churches. You know perfectly well that your religious organization teaches:

“The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White’s writings].”[3] “Ellen G. White[’s] . . . writings . . . are a continuing and authoritative source of truth.”[4] “We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White’s writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and through in one case as in the other.”[5]


I agree with you that caring about what Ellen White said is "unhealthy," because she was a false prophet who preached a false gospel and worshipped, for decades, a false god rather than the Triune God of the Bible. However, there is not a little irony in your saying that I have an "unhealthy fascination with EW" when you are part of a religious organization that quotes her like Scripture every week in their sermons. How can you have an "unhealthy fascination" with what is, in your religious organization, inspired writings that are just as inspired as the Bible? Can you have an "unhealthy fascination" with God's Word? If you openly repudiate EGW as a false prophet and separate from the religious organization that claims her writings are as inspired as the Bible, I will be happy to stop talking about her. Otherwise, your request is a exceedingly blatant double-standard. Please explain how one can have an "unhealthy fascination" with the inspired Word of God or reject EGW.

Thanks.

KJB1611 said...

By the way, the link:


http://faithsaves.net/bible-truths-for-seventh-day-adventist-friends/

referenced above is now at:

http://faithsaves.net/seventh-day-adventist/

instead